Theological Opinions , PART II

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

I think the trouble here is our culture's fondness for having things clearly delineated, and viewable in black and white, either or terms. Much of the conflict would probably be resolved if we were more willing to take both theories in moderation and find a balance between the two.

I know what you mean about know being sure which to believe and not wanting to declare either completely invalid. I'm like that myself, and it was especially bad during high school which is when all of that personal belief and identity stuff starts coming to the fore.

My advice is: Don't worry about it, it's not something that'll get any better if you lose sleep over it. Put it on your mind's back burner and just enjoy life as best you can for now. The more you experience of life, the more you'll learn and eventually it'll work itself out. More or less.

I will say however, it helps immensely if you believe in God as:

A) More neutral in being than It is usually thought of as.
B) And having a sense of humor.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

I agree with LMM, don't worry about it so much. You're not going to be able to please everyone.

[trolls' bane]

You're right. It's just that I have to remain silent around my mom (because she openly denys and insults evoloution, and in fact once studied thermodynamics--she surprised me by knowing what Entropy was--because according to her it proves to the contrary), and others who beleive in science and only science, though in that case, it goes against my credibilty (my future credibility) and perhaps gives them the wrong impression.
You are all certainly right, and I manage well without worrying, and always have (I've shifted back and forth, and now have settled in-between), and will as I always have. It's just tough when the only people you can tell this to are thousands of miles away, and the rest of the people who you could possibly talk to either are completely unpredictable, don't care and probably aren't even paying any attention, you don't know them well enough, or what their beleifs are because they tend to be silent about them. But thank you. I will manage, and for the most part, try and keep silent about this until I retire from being a physicist.
EDIT: Nope, I know that from experience. It's just that I don't know what's right. If Genesis is 100% true, then I'd be disappointed and probably shift all the way to science.

[HOBBIT]

just believe whatever you want to.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

Just remember that at some point you're going to need to break that silence. Perhaps not until you're living independently, but certainly before you retire.
Whatever your beliefs are, even if they change almost constantly, be honest about them.
Keeping them locked away tends to lead to a resentment of the people you're hiding them from, which isn't good at all, especially if the people in question are your family members.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

just believe whatever you want to.

That would not be wise, in my view. Believe what you think is the truth, whether you want to or not.

I'm very eager to respond, Trolls' Bane. You're asking very good questions, and there are good answers available too, I think! These sorts of things always get me excited.

Originally Posted by trolls' bane

My conflict is this. Though beleiving fully in biblical teachings, I can't help but to consider them incomplete. They fail to give a good answer to why things are the way they are, they just tell how things should be, and how they might have been. The largest problem I face is one that has troubled many for centuries. How was the universe created?

You're quite right that the biblical teachings are incomplete, if you think they're supposed to answer everything. They aren't intended to do that, however. They are intended primarily to deepen our relationships with God. They do contain details about the beginning of the world and the end of the world that do stand up to modern science, however. But those aren't the emphasis, because the Bible focuses on what's really important for people of all generations.

Originally Posted by trolls' bane

I beleive, as many physicists, cosmologists, and others hint towards but rarely openly proclaim, that God created the universe through the Big Bang. This is where the opposite problem takes hold. The universe is so grand, so vast, so beautiful and elegant that how could anyone not beleive that there is some sort of intelligent design. Where did the universe come from? How could time not exist until the Big Bang?

Just to let you know, many Christian scientists also feel that God created through the Big Bang.

Originally Posted by trolls' bane

The second question is the one that causes the biggest clamour and conflict. If the book of Genesis says that God created man directly in a day, how come all says otherwise. Conversely, why did evoloution favor bipeds, and why should there be humans at all? Why did life start out here in the first place, and furthermore, how?
This is where it gets me the most. Though beleiving in biblical teachings, I have to contradict that statement by denying the book of Genesis. What can I do? Two things I thoroughly beleive in are mortal enemies.

First of all, I would like to point out that one should not rely too heavily on science, whether there is a God or not. This is because scientific theory changes a lot. Theories arise and are debunked routinely as new and better information becomes available. It was only during the 20th century that the view that the continents were stationary was debunked. Archaelogical understanding also changes. Scientific technologies and resources change and enhance, and expose us to better understanding. In view of this fact, it is not wise to rely on fluctuating current human understanding. Science is good and I fully support it. I'm just pointing out it's not totally reliable.

However, my view is that it's right that evolution has occurred, and I don't believe God created the world in seven 24 hours days. Seemingly paradoxically, I also believe that the Bible is absolutely, literally true. There are many Christians who feel the same way. I will explain soon.

Originally Posted by trolls' bane

The overall problem is in the people I interact with. While some would be glad to hear that I favor science, and shake their heads if I didn't, others, such as my mom, would be furious if the former was the case. How can I keep everyone happy?

I'm sorry, but I don't think that's the right question. We should believe what we think is true. If it's too uncomfortable, perhaps we can keep it quiet. For example, based on my analysis of scripture and a couple experiences with the Lord, I believe the Holy Spirit is more the female aspect of God's nature than the male. I would be more comfortable calling the Holy Spirit a "she" than a "he". Very, very few of the Christians I know and respect would agree with me on that, and the view would badly upset my mother, so I generally keep it quiet. If the subject came up and people were discussing it, I might state my view, but I just won't volunteer information. Whether we should always speak what we believe or not though, we must believe what we do based on our real best judgment, rather than what would make others happy or ourselves comfortable.

Originally Posted by trolls' bane

I certainly don't want God mad at me, but everything in the first book of the Bible is in direct conflict with observation, and over all of that, the explanation laid down therein is inexplicably dull.

Okay, on to a more comfortable matter: Genesis.

The first fact we must take into account is that while the Bible should be taken literally, it is not necessarily appropriate to take the first chapter of Genesis literally. There are two parts of the Bible that no Christian takes literally however: visions and dreams. Often, through them, God talks in the language of symbols. They are two of God's most frequently used ways of communicating with mankind. Another important fact is the the number 7 is used all the time, symbolically in the vision of Revelation. It is the number symbolizing perfection or completeness. God used it in visions.

Now, why should one believe Genesis Chapter 1 could easily be symbolic rather than literal?

One very simple reason. There are others, but this is the best one. Man wasn't created until the sixth day. He couldn't have known any of the major creation events, because he was created after all of them! Thus, God MUST have told mankind about creation, since they could not have seen it themselves.

And how does God talk? Dreams and visions, very frequently.

Originally Posted by trolls' bane

This leads me to wonder, why the conflict? Where in human history did we go wrong, or are we just trying to see this from a firmly divided viewpoint without accepting any other soloution? The universe is not black and white.

I think the third solution is completely logical in this instance.

There are aspects of the Biblical account of Genesis that also strongly indicate it's true.

In one of the verses describing the creation, Genesis Chapter 1 says that the land created the animals according to their kinds. The land, or the environment, just as modern science predicts through the Theory of Evolution.

Another of the verses says that in the beginning, the water of the world was "all in one place," just as one would expect if Pangea existed. Later on, in the midst of the genealogies in a chapter a little later, it says, "it was in the days of Peleg that the land divided," which, if taken literally, describes the continental split.

Another passage in Genesis acknowledges the existence of the dinosaurs. The "serpent" that deceived Eve was judged by God for its sin. He cursed the serpent saying, "you shall crawl on your belly and eat dust!" For this to be a punishment, it must be some kind of new judgment on the serpent. For crawling on its belly and eating dust to be a punishment, the serpent must have stood upright. What serpents have stood upright? The dinosaurs.

I find Genesis quite fascinating in how well it unites with current understanding, and as a matter of a fact its accuracy in describing events now proven by science is a strong argument for its accuracy as the Word of God.

Revelation is the same way. That book contains descriptions of several disasters on Earth which would have seemed impossible except by miracles of the highest order, in the time they were written. Now, modern technology has caught up with them and has made them plausible in the freakiest ways.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Faramir

If 'God' did create man, why did he start with dinosaurs and then let them run around for millions of years before he decided he was done them? Was it just sort of weirs experiment he was having?

As I said above to Trolls' Bane, the Bible isn't meant to answer every question man could come up with. The Bible would be an endless manuscript, if it were intended to answer every question. Also, there'd be no room for figuring out puzzles either, since every answer would be there! There'd be no surprises, and none of the excitement they bring!

The Bible is about man's relationship with God, though God saw fit to include some information about man's past and destiny as well.

There are lots of things that you don't know about me, Faramir. Why shouldn't there be many more things you don't know about God?

Originally Posted by Lady Marion

Just remember that at some point you're going to need to break that silence. Perhaps not until you're living independently, but certainly before you retire.
Whatever your beliefs are, even if they change almost constantly, be honest about them.
Keeping them locked away tends to lead to a resentment of the people you're hiding them from, which isn't good at all, especially if the people in question are your family members.

I think this depends some on personalities. I don't harbor any resentment toward my mother or the general Christian community, even though many would disagree with me about the Holy Spirit being female. I don't usually go broadcasting the view either (though I know I just did here ). If it became an issue that was causing resentment, I'd agree with you that it would be right to discuss it and keep it from becoming a barrier for me. Right now though, I just feel that actually speaking it out to my mother would be creating an unnecessary barrier rather than removing one.

One annoyance about this situation is that most of the people who'd agree with me about the Holy Spirit being female have other doctrines also, doctrines that disgust me and which I feel are completely innaccurate. That's a crowd I'd hate for people to link me with.

[HOBBIT]

That would not be wise, in my view. Believe what you think is the truth, whether you want to or not.

I guess I wasn't clear enough. I certainly wouldn't believe anything that I didn't think was true. Believe what you want as in make your own decisions about what is true and not true and make your own beliefs based on that. Believe what you want.

I would assume that you would only believe what you believe to be true. Do people believe things that they don't think are true?!

I can see your point there may be some true things that you may not want to believe in. So don't believe in them. Easy as that.

[Lief Erikson]

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what you mean! We should believe what in sober judgment we think is true, whether we want to believe it's true or not. That's my view . . . do you agree with it?

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

I can see your point there may be some true things that you may not want to believe in. So don't believe in them. Easy as that.

What if I don't want to believe in the Holocaust?

[Rían]

Janet, I did NOT start this thread!!!!

Originally Posted by trolls' bane

Do you think it's right to beleive in two things simultaneously that others are constantly at odds about?

I agree with Lief - believe in whatever you think, after sober, open-minded consideration, is true, whether it is comfortable or not. I appreciate your thoughtful tone in your post - I love to see good questions and thoughts!

This question has been bothering me for some time. Therefore, I have decided to cross the line I have not yet dared to cross (nor do I plan to ever again), and that is the line of religion versus science.

Aahhh, I think the whole "religion vs. science" thing is mostly a big schmozzle over nothing, and it's a line mostly promoted by atheists with an agenda. There are VERY, VERY few areas where religion and science are "against" each other, IMO, and those areas aren't very important. I hope you don't think religion and science are always against each other - they just aren't, in the vast majority of cases. It's only in evolutionary areas (a very small area of scientific investigation) where this is the case, and evolutionary studies are a hybrid type of science, where the answers will NEVER be known and are UNABLE to be discovered because of the historical nature of the beast.

EDIT - oh, I see that you said further down in your post that they aren't in conflict much - ok, good!

My conflict is this. Though beleiving fully in biblical teachings, I can't help but to consider them incomplete.

I don't think you can judge if they're incomplete or not, unless you know their goal. What do you think their goal is?

The universe is so grand, so vast, so beautiful and elegant that how could anyone not beleive that there is some sort of intelligent design.

I agree with you that that is a strong indicator of intelligent design.

Why did life start out here in the first place, and furthermore, how?

One of my favorite explanations of this is that God made the universe, and the people in it, because He loves a good story Seriously, the "how" can continue to be a fascinating search for information, but for me, it's obvious that something is here, and unless you're a fan of infinite recursion that answers nothing (some people seem to think if a speaker says "billions and billions of years" enough times, it somehow lets the speaker off the hook for giving a real answer), I think it's reasonable to assume that there must be a self-existant (i.e., uncreated) being behind it powerful enough to carry it off.

How can I keep everyone happy?

I"m sorry you're in this dilemma but it will be one you'll face all your life. You CANNOT keep everyone happy; I think the best solution is to do what you, yourself, honestly and soul-searchingly think is right, and do it in a loving way.

I certainly don't want God mad at me, but everything in the first book of the Bible is in direct conflict with observation, and over all of that, the explanation laid down therein is inexplicably dull.

I can't speak for Him, but I imagine He's very pleased with your honest searching. And I don't think by any means that "everything" is in direct conflict with observation.

I don't think of the Genesis account as dull; I think it sounds like great fun! Can you just imagine all of these animals popping (whoops, I typed "pooping" first, but I guess that's true, too! ) up, and God waiting in such a fun way to see what Adam will name them, and just the sheer joy of exploration and discovery?

This leads me to wonder, why the conflict?

Well, you'll see some people here constantly refer to "religious myths" and things like that, but you need to remember that atheism is just as valid a candidate for a myth as any religion. It's either true or not true that there is a God. And if it's true that there is a God, then either He wants us to know about Him, or He doesn't, or He doesn't care. If the last option (or part of the second option), then that falls into the same category as "there is no God" as far as we can tell, because there will be no observable evidence of His existence. If He does want us to know about Him, then it's reasonable to assume that He can manage that. Immediately the question arises, well why doesn't He just show us Himself? Of course, He did just that in the Garden of Eden (if that account is true), and obviously that didn't make things perfect, so intellectual verification of His existence is not the answer to all of life's problems. Anyway, just a beginning ...

And BTW, yes, there are stories, but some of them are true - I can tell a story about how I met my husband, and just because it's a story doesn't mean it's necessarily false. Frankly, I think the atheistic myth is an incredibly easy one to adopt because it's so comforting and flattering. Hopefully, atheists adopt it because of intellectual investigation and integrity, but I have a sneaking suspicion that many of them don't.

Where in human history did we go wrong, or are we just trying to see this from a firmly divided viewpoint without accepting any other soloution? The universe is not black and white.

Some things are (it's either true or not true that right now I am wearing a blue sweater).

Good thinking! I'd just keep an open mind about things, and if you firmly believe that there is a God, as you say you do, then study that, too - science by no means covers all aspects of life - only those that are testable and observeable. And IMO, the "funnest" aspects of life are not testable and observeable! But I really like science, too - I was a physics major at Uni before I switched to computers.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I don't think of the Genesis account as dull; I think it sounds like great fun! Can you just imagine all of these animals popping (whoops, I typed "pooping" first, but I guess that's true, too! ) up, and God waiting in such a fun way to see what Adam will name them, and just the sheer joy of exploration and discovery?

That exploration and joy of discovery continues to exist for mankind, as they discover new things . It's pretty neat. The story doesn't have to include animals "popping" to be thrilling, however!

Since Genesis Chapter 1 could easily have been a vision or dream, I feel that the issue of whether evolution is true or not is entirely a matter of science rather than one of doctrine. Whether evolution happened or not, it doesn't contradict scripture.

[HOBBIT]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

What if I don't want to believe in the Holocaust?

you can believe whatever you want to. you posted the stuff on Holocaust denial. There are people who don't believe in it. So go join them. *shrug* many people just wouldn't take you seriously or/and associate with you if that was your belief.

It is my opinion that creationism is ridiculous and yet that what some people believe. They want to believe in it so they do. They think that creationism is right and true.

I think in a way that everyone believes mostly what they want. Like things relating to religion for example.

Life is too short, just believe what you want to believe - even if it may contradict things. I hold some contradictory beliefs - and that is fine with me.

[Rían]

The issue of (non-theistic) evolution vs. creationism is independant of my beliefs as a Christian - IMO, Christianity is the most reasonable explanation of observeable things in the universe (including my own heart), no matter if evolution is true or not. Right now, I currently think that the ACTUAL OBSERVEABLE EVIDENCE falls somewhat in favor of creationism, but if IMO it starts to fall more into evolution's side, that won't affect my belief that Christianity is the most reasonable worldview out there.

Lief - Re Holy Spirit and female - both men AND women were made in God's image - Genesis is very clear on that, so I don't think your idea is unreasonable (for in order for women to be made in God's image, he must have those traits), but personally, I don't see the benefits of spending a lot of time on it to the exclusion of more profitable things - as Prince Caspian said, "And I do not see that it brings into the islands meat or bread or beer or wine or timber or cabbages or books or instruments of music or horses or armour or anything else worth having." IOW, study/think on it as an interesting aside (like I do the interesting question I thought about recently - will I have a perfect singing voice in heaven, or will I just not regret my lack of a perfect singing voice? IOW, is my lack of perfect singing due to a marring from sin that will be healed, or just that I don't have a gift that someone else has and I have other gifts?) but remember to be about the Lord's business of loving others in a tangible way

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

The issue of (non-theistic) evolution vs. creationism is independant of my beliefs as a Christian - IMO, Christianity is the most reasonable explanation of observeable things in the universe (including my own heart), no matter if evolution is true or not. Right now, I currently think that the ACTUAL OBSERVEABLE EVIDENCE falls somewhat in favor of creationism, but if IMO it starts to fall more into evolution's side, that won't affect my belief that Christianity is the most reasonable worldview out there.

I'm glad we agree that this isn't a matter of scripture, but of science. Understanding that is key, and I fully intend to argue that with other Christians I get to know later in my life. The evolution vs. creationism argument, where it is related to scripture rather than pure science, is really a diversion from what's important, and one that envelopes too many people.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Lief - Re Holy Spirit and female - both men AND women were made in God's image - Genesis is very clear on that, so I don't think your idea is unreasonable (for in order for women to be made in God's image, he must have those traits), but personally, I don't see the benefits of spending a lot of time on it to the exclusion of more profitable things - as Prince Caspian said, "And I do not see that it brings into the islands meat or bread or beer or wine or timber or cabbages or books or instruments of music or horses or armour or anything else worth having." IOW, study/think on it as an interesting aside (like I do the interesting question I thought about recently - will I have a perfect singing voice in heaven, or will I just not regret my lack of a perfect singing voice? IOW, is my lack of perfect singing due to a marring from sin that will be healed, or just that I don't have a gift that someone else has and I have other gifts?) but remember to be about the Lord's business of loving others in a tangible way

I agree. And the more one understands of God's nature, the merrier .

[Rían]

LOL! Couldn't agree more!

[Spock]

This falls under an existing topic thread.

Theological Opinions , PART II

*moved*

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

We know the Gospel of Judas was a Cainite Gnostic text, however.

Just noticed this. Cainite Gnostic Texts? I thought that was, like, the Book of Nod.

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Just noticed this. Cainite Gnostic Texts? I thought that was, like, the Book of Nod.

from Wiki...

The Cainites were a Gnostic and Antinomian sect who were known to worship Cain as the first victim of the Demiurge Jehovah, the Old Testament God, who was identified by many groups of gnostics as evil. They venerated Cain, on the basis that by creating murder Cain allowed men to deny it, and thus have a greater chance at redemption from Original Sin. The sect following was relatively small. They were mentioned by Tertullian and Irenaeus as existing in the eastern Roman Empire during the 2nd century. One of their purported apocryphal texts was the Gospel of Judas.

Bizarre!

[Lief Erikson]

Yup, bizarre indeed.

[Rían]

Interesting reasoning from those Cainites ...

*thinks of bad things to create so men can deny them*