04-21-2006, 09:37 PM | #461 |
Elf Lord
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I think the trouble here is our culture's fondness for having things clearly delineated, and viewable in black and white, either or terms. Much of the conflict would probably be resolved if we were more willing to take both theories in moderation and find a balance between the two.
I know what you mean about know being sure which to believe and not wanting to declare either completely invalid. I'm like that myself, and it was especially bad during high school which is when all of that personal belief and identity stuff starts coming to the fore. My advice is: Don't worry about it, it's not something that'll get any better if you lose sleep over it. Put it on your mind's back burner and just enjoy life as best you can for now. The more you experience of life, the more you'll learn and eventually it'll work itself out. More or less. I will say however, it helps immensely if you believe in God as: A) More neutral in being than It is usually thought of as. B) And having a sense of humor.
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04-21-2006, 09:53 PM | #462 |
Spaceman Spiff
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I agree with LMM, don't worry about it so much. You're not going to be able to please everyone.
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04-21-2006, 09:56 PM | #463 |
Entmoot Secretary of the Treasury
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You're right. It's just that I have to remain silent around my mom (because she openly denys and insults evoloution, and in fact once studied thermodynamics--she surprised me by knowing what Entropy was--because according to her it proves to the contrary), and others who beleive in science and only science, though in that case, it goes against my credibilty (my future credibility) and perhaps gives them the wrong impression.
You are all certainly right, and I manage well without worrying, and always have (I've shifted back and forth, and now have settled in-between), and will as I always have. It's just tough when the only people you can tell this to are thousands of miles away, and the rest of the people who you could possibly talk to either are completely unpredictable, don't care and probably aren't even paying any attention, you don't know them well enough, or what their beleifs are because they tend to be silent about them. But thank you. I will manage, and for the most part, try and keep silent about this until I retire from being a physicist. EDIT: Nope, I know that from experience. It's just that I don't know what's right. If Genesis is 100% true, then I'd be disappointed and probably shift all the way to science.
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04-21-2006, 10:14 PM | #464 |
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just believe whatever you want to.
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04-21-2006, 10:40 PM | #465 |
Elf Lord
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Just remember that at some point you're going to need to break that silence. Perhaps not until you're living independently, but certainly before you retire.
Whatever your beliefs are, even if they change almost constantly, be honest about them. Keeping them locked away tends to lead to a resentment of the people you're hiding them from, which isn't good at all, especially if the people in question are your family members.
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"Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet them that hang! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; Leave me my name!" - The Crucible "nolite hippopotamum vexare!" |
04-21-2006, 11:22 PM | #466 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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I'm very eager to respond, Trolls' Bane. You're asking very good questions, and there are good answers available too, I think! These sorts of things always get me excited. Quote:
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However, my view is that it's right that evolution has occurred, and I don't believe God created the world in seven 24 hours days. Seemingly paradoxically, I also believe that the Bible is absolutely, literally true. There are many Christians who feel the same way. I will explain soon. Quote:
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The first fact we must take into account is that while the Bible should be taken literally, it is not necessarily appropriate to take the first chapter of Genesis literally. There are two parts of the Bible that no Christian takes literally however: visions and dreams. Often, through them, God talks in the language of symbols. They are two of God's most frequently used ways of communicating with mankind. Another important fact is the the number 7 is used all the time, symbolically in the vision of Revelation. It is the number symbolizing perfection or completeness. God used it in visions. Now, why should one believe Genesis Chapter 1 could easily be symbolic rather than literal? One very simple reason. There are others, but this is the best one. Man wasn't created until the sixth day. He couldn't have known any of the major creation events, because he was created after all of them! Thus, God MUST have told mankind about creation, since they could not have seen it themselves. And how does God talk? Dreams and visions, very frequently. Quote:
There are aspects of the Biblical account of Genesis that also strongly indicate it's true. In one of the verses describing the creation, Genesis Chapter 1 says that the land created the animals according to their kinds. The land, or the environment, just as modern science predicts through the Theory of Evolution. Another of the verses says that in the beginning, the water of the world was "all in one place," just as one would expect if Pangea existed. Later on, in the midst of the genealogies in a chapter a little later, it says, "it was in the days of Peleg that the land divided," which, if taken literally, describes the continental split. Another passage in Genesis acknowledges the existence of the dinosaurs. The "serpent" that deceived Eve was judged by God for its sin. He cursed the serpent saying, "you shall crawl on your belly and eat dust!" For this to be a punishment, it must be some kind of new judgment on the serpent. For crawling on its belly and eating dust to be a punishment, the serpent must have stood upright. What serpents have stood upright? The dinosaurs. I find Genesis quite fascinating in how well it unites with current understanding, and as a matter of a fact its accuracy in describing events now proven by science is a strong argument for its accuracy as the Word of God. Revelation is the same way. That book contains descriptions of several disasters on Earth which would have seemed impossible except by miracles of the highest order, in the time they were written. Now, modern technology has caught up with them and has made them plausible in the freakiest ways.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-21-2006 at 11:27 PM. |
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04-21-2006, 11:34 PM | #467 | ||
Elf Lord
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The Bible is about man's relationship with God, though God saw fit to include some information about man's past and destiny as well. There are lots of things that you don't know about me, Faramir. Why shouldn't there be many more things you don't know about God? Quote:
One annoyance about this situation is that most of the people who'd agree with me about the Holy Spirit being female have other doctrines also, doctrines that disgust me and which I feel are completely innaccurate. That's a crowd I'd hate for people to link me with.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-21-2006 at 11:49 PM. |
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04-21-2006, 11:47 PM | #468 | |
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I would assume that you would only believe what you believe to be true. Do people believe things that they don't think are true?! I can see your point there may be some true things that you may not want to believe in. So don't believe in them. Easy as that.
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04-21-2006, 11:56 PM | #469 | |
Elf Lord
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I'm still trying to figure out exactly what you mean! We should believe what in sober judgment we think is true, whether we want to believe it's true or not. That's my view . . . do you agree with it?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-22-2006, 12:36 AM | #470 | |||||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Janet, I did NOT start this thread!!!!
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EDIT - oh, I see that you said further down in your post that they aren't in conflict much - ok, good! Quote:
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I don't think of the Genesis account as dull; I think it sounds like great fun! Can you just imagine all of these animals popping (whoops, I typed "pooping" first, but I guess that's true, too! ) up, and God waiting in such a fun way to see what Adam will name them, and just the sheer joy of exploration and discovery? Quote:
And BTW, yes, there are stories, but some of them are true - I can tell a story about how I met my husband, and just because it's a story doesn't mean it's necessarily false. Frankly, I think the atheistic myth is an incredibly easy one to adopt because it's so comforting and flattering. Hopefully, atheists adopt it because of intellectual investigation and integrity, but I have a sneaking suspicion that many of them don't. Quote:
Good thinking! I'd just keep an open mind about things, and if you firmly believe that there is a God, as you say you do, then study that, too - science by no means covers all aspects of life - only those that are testable and observeable. And IMO, the "funnest" aspects of life are not testable and observeable! But I really like science, too - I was a physics major at Uni before I switched to computers.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-22-2006 at 01:47 AM. |
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04-22-2006, 12:43 AM | #471 | |
Elf Lord
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Since Genesis Chapter 1 could easily have been a vision or dream, I feel that the issue of whether evolution is true or not is entirely a matter of science rather than one of doctrine. Whether evolution happened or not, it doesn't contradict scripture.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-22-2006, 12:45 AM | #472 | |
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It is my opinion that creationism is ridiculous and yet that what some people believe. They want to believe in it so they do. They think that creationism is right and true. I think in a way that everyone believes mostly what they want. Like things relating to religion for example. Life is too short, just believe what you want to believe - even if it may contradict things. I hold some contradictory beliefs - and that is fine with me.
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04-22-2006, 12:52 AM | #473 |
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The issue of (non-theistic) evolution vs. creationism is independant of my beliefs as a Christian - IMO, Christianity is the most reasonable explanation of observeable things in the universe (including my own heart), no matter if evolution is true or not. Right now, I currently think that the ACTUAL OBSERVEABLE EVIDENCE falls somewhat in favor of creationism, but if IMO it starts to fall more into evolution's side, that won't affect my belief that Christianity is the most reasonable worldview out there.
Lief - Re Holy Spirit and female - both men AND women were made in God's image - Genesis is very clear on that, so I don't think your idea is unreasonable (for in order for women to be made in God's image, he must have those traits), but personally, I don't see the benefits of spending a lot of time on it to the exclusion of more profitable things - as Prince Caspian said, "And I do not see that it brings into the islands meat or bread or beer or wine or timber or cabbages or books or instruments of music or horses or armour or anything else worth having." IOW, study/think on it as an interesting aside (like I do the interesting question I thought about recently - will I have a perfect singing voice in heaven, or will I just not regret my lack of a perfect singing voice? IOW, is my lack of perfect singing due to a marring from sin that will be healed, or just that I don't have a gift that someone else has and I have other gifts?) but remember to be about the Lord's business of loving others in a tangible way
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 04-22-2006 at 12:55 AM. |
04-22-2006, 01:06 AM | #474 | ||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-22-2006 at 01:27 AM. |
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04-22-2006, 01:39 AM | #475 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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LOL! Couldn't agree more!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-22-2006, 03:04 AM | #476 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Topic being moved
This falls under an existing topic thread.
Theological Opinions , PART II *moved*
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04-22-2006, 05:19 PM | #477 | |
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04-23-2006, 02:52 AM | #478 | ||
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04-23-2006, 03:07 AM | #479 |
Elf Lord
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Yup, bizarre indeed.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
04-23-2006, 03:11 AM | #480 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Interesting reasoning from those Cainites ...
*thinks of bad things to create so men can deny them*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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