Bush addresses the world- Pending War

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Khamûl
It seems that American troops found 3000 chemical protection suits in a hospital near An Nasiriyah. They also found gas masks and nerve gas antidote injectors. Gee, I wonder what they need those for?

Come on - you know it's just to protect them from the chemical weapons we have. I wouldn't put it past Hussein to use chemical weapons on his own people and then blame us for it. The ridiculout thing is - the world will believe it.

By the way - did you also hear about the US iniforms they found too?

This was what was on Nightline tonight...

The war came to the Al-Shaab neighborhood of Baghdad today, where at least 14 people were killed and around 30 injured by an explosion, apparently caused by a U.S. cruise missile. The Pentagon denied targeting the residential area, but Major General Stanley McChrystal couldn't say whether an errant U.S. missile or Iraqi anti-aircraft fire might have been the cause. The incident points up the highly sensitive issue of "collateral damage" in a war being fought in close proximity to civilian populations. There will no doubt be pictures of the carnage on Arab television tonight, reinforcing the belief among many Arabs that the U.S. is deliberately killing civilians. The United States has repeatedly accused Saddam Hussein of placing potential military targets near civilians and vice versa. Pentagon spokeswoman Torie Clarke said today that the Iraqis placed missile launchers only 300 feet from residents' homes, "a sign of the brutality of this regime and how little they care about civilians."

Tonight the BBC's Rageh Omar reports from the densely populated neighborhood, where residents are both stunned and angry. The truth about such incidents can be hard to discern, and often lies in the eye of the beholder, as ABC's Bob Brown illustrates in a report on how the world's media are portraying the war. He'll compare the treatment of various stories from today's headlines, including the civilian casulties in Baghdad, by several European and Arabic media outlets.

Ted Koppel continues his reporting tonight from inside Iraq with the Army's Third Infantry Division as it advances toward Baghdad. It may surprise some viewers to learn that the division travels with a squad of lawyers--yes, lawyers--who closely monitor a myriad of daily decisions by division commanders. The primary concern is to make sure that every action is in accordance with the international law of war and the rules of engagement. Crucial issues include treatment of POWs and potential civilian casulties, such as the ones in Baghdad today. When there is concern that a military target might be near civilians, the lawyers help decide whether to hit it and if so, by what means.

The other major story on tonight's broadcast comes from John Donvan in
southern Iraq, where the humanitarian aid effort is just getting underway, with mixed results. John reports from the city of Safwan, where a chaotic scene ensued today when Kuwait's Red Crescent Society began handing out aid packages. The crowd became angry and began chanting pro-Saddam slogans. But in the port city of Umm Qasr, John accompanies U.S. aid workers who are preparing the port for an influx of aid, and finds the citizens there highly receptive.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Funny thing with that is that we knew after Bush gave Saddam the ultimatum that they had purchased American military uniforms. No surprise there.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Funny thing with that is that we knew after Bush gave Saddam the ultimatum that they had purchased American military uniforms. No surprise there.

Yeah - but I think the rest of the world just ignored it - or viewed it as American propaganda.

I find it funny how - even though the US has repeatedly admitted bombing mistakes in the past - people around the world would rather believe Hussein that a US missile killed the civilians at the market today. The Frence reporter scoffed at the idea that we did not target that area and that it might have come from Husseins on weaponry. All the US said was we didn't know and we would have an investigation. Hussein is known for targeting his own citizens and has weaponry laid out all over residential areas - including schools and hospitals. Why isn't is possible that one of Husseins own weapons caused the damage?

A Chinese reporter today asked a question regarding the downed Black Hawk helicopter which Iraq is claiming to have been shot down by a farmer. He took it as fact that Iraq was telling the truth because he saw an interview Al Jazeera did with Iraqi government officials.

[Dúnedain]

It's also unbelievable that there are people who get mad at us for civilians dying whether it is 1 or 100, but it's ok for Saddam to have killed 1.5 MILLION innocent people in his reign.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Unbelievable, but not to worry. There is no doubt that the Iraqi's are fighting a lost battle. They are on their way from what I hear to meet US forces. This war may take a while, but in the end, they can't , and won't win it. So foolish to fight for a lost cause. Such a waste to be so desperate, and sacrifice so much life for all the wrong reasons.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Unbelievable, but not to worry. There is no doubt that the Iraqi's are fighting a lost battle. They are on their way from what I hear to meet US forces. This war may take a while, but in the end, they can't , and won't win it. So foolish to fight for a lost cause. Such a waste to be so desperate, and sacrifice so much life for all the wrong reasons.

It is not foolish to them, and the reasons make sense to them. Many of them see the forces of the coalision as an invasion army. Wouldn't you have defended your country until death if you had been invaded?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Yeah - but I think the rest of the world just ignored it - or viewed it as American propaganda.

I find it funny how - even though the US has repeatedly admitted bombing mistakes in the past - people around the world would rather believe Hussein that a US missile killed the civilians at the market today. The Frence reporter scoffed at the idea that we did not target that area and that it might have come from Husseins on weaponry. All the US said was we didn't know and we would have an investigation. Hussein is known for targeting his own citizens and has weaponry laid out all over residential areas - including schools and hospitals. Why isn't is possible that one of Husseins own weapons caused the damage?

A Chinese reporter today asked a question regarding the downed Black Hawk helicopter which Iraq is claiming to have been shot down by a farmer. He took it as fact that Iraq was telling the truth because he saw an interview Al Jazeera did with Iraqi government officials.

It's also unbelievable that there are people who get mad at us for civilians dying whether it is 1 or 100, but it's ok for Saddam to have killed 1.5 MILLION innocent people in his reign.

Hey, I've said it before, I'll say it again: Anything must be true if it wasn't said by Americans or did not reflect well upon Americans, or must be just fine if it wasn't do by or beneficial to Americans. I know it sounds awful, and I really hate to say it, but it really does seem like it's them against us. Now, by all means I am not saying that everyone who isn't an American is anti-American, but that certainly does seem to be very predominant. Some non-Americans support America, and believe that this war is necessary, but frankly I'm a bit surprised that many of the Europeans and Pacific Islanders weren't in the streets dancing as well on September 11th.

[markedel]

Most of the world is uncomfortable with the exercise of raw American power, no matter how sympathetic they are to America's ideals and people. There are also plenty of people who oppose the ideals of the U.S, so why would they wish it well?

As for fighting for Saddam-it's likely a combination of nationalism, pride, fear and ignorance of why the Americans are here. Which predominates depends, I suppose, on the hatered of Saddam.

[Draken]

Accidents happen. I remember in the '91 Gulf War when a Paveway LGB went haywire on release, missed the basket and veered several hundred metres away from the bridge it was being dropped on and into a civilian target (again a market, as I recall). Similarly the Iraqis are firing SAMs and one of those could just as easily have malfunctioned. Having been very careful for almost a week I see no reason to suddenly blame the Allies for targetting civilians.

[GrayMouser]

One thing that everyone should be grateful for is that the Pentagon prevailed over the civilians like Sec. of Defense Rumfeld, Dep. Sec Wolfowitz and Richard Perle who were advocating invasion-lite.

These were the guys that were saying that Iraq would be Afghanistan Redux- all it would take was a quick bombing campaign and a (comparatively) few light U.S. troops, and the Iraqi opposition would rise up and overthrow Hussein.

They were constantly ridiculing those old-fashioned fuddy-duddies in the Army who insisted on fighting 'Daddy's' war.

If the neo-cons had had their way, the invasion force would have been 50-70,000 Light Infantry, Airborne and Special Forces- no heavy armour.

(Currently 280,000 , with 30,000 more in the pipeline and complaints of not enough tanks and heavy equipment.)

These guys were also spreading talk about finishing off Iraq and then shifting forces in the summer to the North Pacific to take out North Korea- reports that some in the White House were calling Pyongyang a "paper tiger"- Sheeesh!

[GrayMouser]

And could you guys please get over this thing with France, or at least spread it around a little? The majority of EVERY country in the world except the U.S. and Israel was opposed to this war.

I mean, even Bush threatened Canada, Mexico, Chile, Germany and Turkey as well.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Wouldn't you have defended your country until death if you had been invaded?

If my country was being invaded by a force that was about a thousand times stronger then us, and showed every indication that they were there to liberate us from a life of hell, and an evil dictator, no I would not defend it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
And could you guys please get over this thing with France, or at least spread it around a little? The majority of EVERY country in the world except the U.S. and Israel was opposed to this war.

I mean, even Bush threatened Canada, Mexico, Chile, Germany and Turkey as well.

We didn't threaten any of those countries. We offered Turkey substantial aid. Also - who we give aid should go to countries who support us. If they don't support us - that is fine - but they have to be ready for the consequences if we decide to cut aid or funding. One of the key eliminates of diplomacy and negotiations is "you rub my back - I'll rub yours" You may consider it threatening - but it's the way ALL countries work.

Also there is a difference between France and the other ocuntries. France initially had TOLD Colin Powell that if the first resolution went forward through the UN that France would abide by it's terms. That they would NOT try to drag inspections on forever while Hussein complied peacemeal. France then went out of it's way to stonewall us every chance they got. It wasn't as if they were just against the war - they were telling other countries who supported us to "shut up or risk EU membership". France's attitude was VERY different from other countries.

[Draken]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
If my country was being invaded by a force that was about a thousand times stronger then us, and showed every indication that they were there to liberate us from a life of hell, and an evil dictator, no I would not defend it.

However good we think the Allies are, you have to accept that a chunk of the population of an invaded country might not think the same and could feel sufficiently motivated to defend their homeland rather than the regime running it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Draken
However good we think the Allies are, you have to accept that a chunk of the population of an invaded country might not think the same and could feel sufficiently motivated to defend their homeland rather than the regime running it.

Or maybe the people are afraid we'll leave and that if they don't stand up to us and Hussein is left in power - he'll take his hatred out on them again.

Top U.S. official: Iraq has executed some POWs
General: Iraqis hang woman for waving to coalition troops

The Marine general said that what has surprised him most about the first week of fighting is the extent of war crimes carried out by the Iraqi regime. In addition to the execution of POWs, he said, Iraqis have used civilians as human shields, stored weapons in schools, set up command posts in hospitals and pretended to surrender only to open fire.

In one case, an Iraqi woman was hanged after she waved to coalition forces, Pace said.

A lot of the people of Iraq have guns to their heads and it's not from US forces.

[Dunadan]

That's undoubtedly true, but you have to accept that what Draken says is also true.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dunadan
That's undoubtedly true, but you have to accept that what Draken says is also true.

I accept the possibility of it being true - not the fact that it is true. We don't really know how the Iraqi's feel at this point. They have been brutalised ever since Hussein came to power, we let them rise up against him only to be slaughtered, we didn't eliminate Hussein in 1991 when the time was ripe. Under those circumstances - I'd be afraid of joining in a fight against the regime. They're placing their bets right now - and Hussein has played the propaganda tool very well. I'm sure they don't know who to trust and are just fighting to save their individual lives, not necessarily to "protect" Iraq. The Republican Guard, the Ba'ath Party and so forth are a different story however - they know without Hussein they don't have much of a future.

[congressmn]

A bit off topic here.

BUt i'd like to tell bout this incident ne way.

A good friend of my father, a persor in an Air India flight, was on the evacuation flight, to get all the Indians livin in Kuwait back home.

They passed over Basra at low altitude, and they cud see all the firing n all. the bombs bursting away, the shelling, the report opf the guns n stuff.

so it made me wonder for the first time what it wud be like for the ppl involved in war, purticularly the Iraqis. I mean, they have had a torrid time under hussein's rule, and now this war.
evrytime u switch on ure TV this war thing is on, and showing the ppl there running and packin away from their houses on foot.

life must be hell-like ofr them, is all i am saying.

So I come to my question finally.

Do you think a better future lies ahead for them? is their ne hope for the iraqi ppl? DOnt you think WAr is just too hard for them to bear after all this? DOes the world not realize that they too need be helped, and that all this is beyond war, and terrorism, but more about peace, tranquility and the need of a helpin hand to those torchured millions?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by congressmn
Do you think a better future lies ahead for them? is their ne hope for the iraqi ppl? DOnt you think WAr is just too hard for them to bear after all this? DOes the world not realize that they too need be helped, and that all this is beyond war, and terrorism, but more about peace, tranquility and the need of a helpin hand to those torchured millions?

I think better times can be ahead for them. I also think war is very very hard on them. I feel deeply sorry for the innocent Iraqis who are suffering. But the question is - how could the outside world even begin to help with them while Hussein remains? The world community hasn't done anything about the tortures, executions, imprisonment which Hussein routinely inflicts on his people. Iraq never paid one single thing for the war crimes committed during the Gulf War. Our troops, which he held as POWs, were raped, beaten and their lives threatened - not to mention all the other war crimes he has committed over the many many years.

While Hussein lives and carries on his regime - there could never be peace for the Iraqi people. Chances are - Udai would be the next ruler of Iraq if Hussein was to die and their was no forced regime change from the outside. Udai is a thousand times worse. Don't know if you heard how he invited to two French college students to a hotel in Baghdad. When they got there - he forced them to have sex with each other at gun point - while he watched and video taped it.

[congressmn]

Originally posted by jerseydevil

While Hussein lives and carries on his regime - there could never be peace for the Iraqi people. Chances are - Udai would be the next ruler of Iraq if Hussein was to die and their was no forced regime change from the outside. Udai is a thousand times worse. Don't know if you heard how he invited to two French college students to a hotel in Baghdad. When they got there - he forced them to have sex with each other at gun point - while he watched and video taped it.

there cant be a better end to this, but one more bitter than the past