11-09-2002, 09:27 PM | #461 | |
the Shrike
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11-10-2002, 12:57 AM | #462 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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It is cool to go into museums and see how the land once looked. It makes you realise how insignificant we are and that in the future everything that we build and do won't even matter.
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11-10-2002, 01:01 AM | #463 | ||
Elf Lord
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I don't disagree that humans and apes have a common ancestor, and I don't agree with it either. I'm not taking the traditional interpretation of biblical passages, and I think evolution is possible. Quote:
Oh, by the way, someone earlier posted that homeschooling was simply an excuse to ignore evolution (or something to that effect). That's actually extremely untrue. Homeschooling has many extremely useful purposes; I've written a report on it. And indoctrination isn't one of them. You can follow a child's learning level instead of forcing them to keep to the speed of the class, you can have a better relationship with your kids, etc. There are many reasons, but the suggested one in this thread is definitely not one. I think the theory of evolution should probably be presented to these young people, when they're at an age where they can see that it is still simply theory. A good deal of it could be over their heads anyway, and there are other more useful things to teach them at that age like writing, math, and language to name a few. Forge Halfling, I really hate to argue with you when several other people are already jumping all over your posts. But I frankly think your ideas about the flood, like a meteor hitting, the connection to the ice age, and the whole Earth not being covered . . . I frankly think those ideas are a little weird and very shaky. Neither the Bible nor science supports them, but what I'd suggest if you're truly interested in this subject, like many other people are, including myself, you look closely at what science has to say and then read the books on geology and the scientific explanations for what happened. Then you'll be in a far better position to create a model. I'm not in the position to create a model for what might have happened, so I'm not attempting to. BeardofPants and Cirdan, in previous posts of theirs, have underlined this statement. Meanwhile, to all those others who are saying faster evolution is impossible, the flood is impossible, the continents breaking up earlier is impossible, let me say this: Science, as you know, is still learning. Some theories are taught and accepted, but then they give way to further understanding at a later date. It has happened before and it can happen again. Current scientific knowledge goes against the possibility of these things happening, but unless you accept science as infallible (Which I seem to understand most of you don't), you cannot say with certainty that you won't learn something new and find that these things might have happened. Until that time comes, you can certainly continue with believing the current scientific theories, methods and information on these subjects. But because it is possible that you are wrong, it cannot be certainly said that these things didn't happen. Thus, the Bible doesn't have to mold to science whenever science disagrees with it, and we shouldn't twist its passages and read between lines to indicate that science is right when the Bible plainly disagrees. I think it is our (Speaking of Christians) duty to explore the possibilities and gain a firm grounding in these subjects. Basically I'm saying that because science can be wrong, Christianity doesn't have to be wrong in those areas that are contradictory. I'm a proponent of further seeking, exploring and discovering. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-10-2002 at 01:34 AM. |
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11-10-2002, 02:46 AM | #464 | |
the Shrike
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I love museums. Te Papa Museum (in Wellington - the same museum that's gonna have the $2m LOTR exhibit) has a newish interactive section where you can watch videos of how Pangea and Gondwanaland looked, and you can enter this house, and experience what the Napier earthquake felt like (it's on these suspension things that bounce up and down.)
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11-10-2002, 10:31 AM | #465 |
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A two million Lord of The Rings exhibit!! OH my!! That sounds so wonderful!
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11-10-2002, 11:38 AM | #466 |
Hobbit
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Chance or design?
Earlier I gave a sequence of numbers and asked if you could tell whether it was chance or design. The point I was making is that intelligent design can look like chance if you don’t know what the design is. The answer to my sequence is that the numbers were taken from the number pi (the distance around a circle of diameter 1) – omitting ten digits. Pi is an irrational number. It is impossible to tell the difference between the sequence of numbers in pi and a sequence generated by chance unless one knows the "design." I think most people agree that intelligent design can appear as chance to someone who does not know the design. But if creation represents God’s communication to us, then we should be able to comprehend at least part of what He is saying. Hence, we should be able to say something, but not nearly everything, concerning what that intelligent design represents.
If creation is God’s Word, then it should communicate truth to us. In my opinion, creation is there to help us understand who God is. When Jesus says, "I am the light of the world," he identifies himself as having attributes similar to that of light. Many analogies can be made. I would like to make one from the theory of relativity. Jesus said, "Before Abraham, I am." If one thinks in terms of relativity, this takes on new meaning. In relativity, the more something travels near the speed of light, the slower time proceeds. In the limit, if something travels at the speed of light, time does not progress at all. Consequently, for light, the past, present, and future are all present. The idea that past, present and future are all present to God gives Jesus’ statement new meaning. Water is an excellent example of the meaning of the incarnation, or the union of flesh and Spirit. The hydrogen atom must surrender its sole electron to oxygen in order to combine. It reaps the benefit of sharing in practically all of the electrons of the oxygen atom. Hydrogen and oxygen together are very volatile. It is like the flesh resisting the spirit and the spirit condemning the flesh as evil. However, in their union they are like a new creation with a new nature. The flesh submits to the spirit, and the spirit gives grace to the flesh. In the relationship between flesh and spirit, flesh and spirit exist together and behave according to their own natures. But in the union of flesh and spirit, flesh and spirit produces a separate, new creation with a completely different nature. There is no longer God condemning people and people resisting God as in the time of Moses. There is God loving people, people loving God, and people loving one another. In the creation of animals and other life forms, I think we each share in our own nature portions of the nature of all other animals (and perhaps plants, too). Observing their natures and their lives can teach us something about ourselves. Incompleteness and imperfection is as much a part of our nature as their natures. It was God’s pleasure to manifest His Son as perfection residing in imperfection. God could have designed the world to be more comfortable for us, but this would not help us to understand and experience who He is. Novels like Tolkien’s "Lord of the Rings" and Hugo’s "Les Miserables" reveal real truths about humility and forgiveness that represent something greater than a chance combination of molecules following abstract laws. In my opinion, there is an inseparable union of spirit and flesh in the nature of Christ, there is an inseparable union of thought and physical activity in the human body, and there is an inseparable union of God’s nature and matter manifest in His creation. If this unin is inseparable, then we can always explain spiritual actions with physical actions. That, in brief, is what design means to me. I am interested in your opinions. Do notions of truth, humility, and love have intrinsic meaning or do we just attribute meaning to fictitious concepts? If they have intrinsic meaning, do we learn about them because God has imprinted them into nature (ours or the world’s) in the form of design, or because some chance combination of molecules produces comprehension of these ideas? |
11-10-2002, 12:30 PM | #467 |
Hobbit
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Fast evolution?
My own views on faster evolution - or rather the question I am trying to understand - is: What is the right mechanism for specie change? How can one really go one character at a time from a Dick and Jane reader (I am showing my age) to a Tolkien trilogy and require that each version make more sense than the last. It seems to me that the transition steps must be faster and more distinctive. I think Lief does make a good point about questioning why similar fossils are observed in multiple geographical regions without the observation of many intermediate fossils. Formation of fossils can be a rare event, but the occurrence from one location to another should be somewhat independent unless there were a lot of globally climactic events. I won’t rule out the latter. Mixing rates in the atmosphere and oceans are rapid (tens of years), so maybe one can have a large number of globally climactic environments that alternate between producing conditions appropriate for fossilization (or faster evolution for that matter) and conditions for producing steady state conditions. This is not meant to deny that in some cases there are stronger evidences for intermediate stages than in other cases. Anyway, I think a faster mechanism is needed to go from one stage to another - unless you can satisfy me that intermediate stages can be reached one mutation (or character) at a time while requiring each step to be better than the last. One thing I am wondering is whether viruses could be agents for faster change. It is known that viruses carry genetic material and do reproduce in the cells of living organisms. It is also known that at least in some rare instances, viruses can carry a double-stranded form of DNA. Does anyone regard this as a possible mechanism for specie evolution? The second question I would wonder about is whether anyone has given much thought to the fact that environmental change can cause phenotypical changes in species that could account for some changes in the geological fossil record. For example, it is known that a Drosophilia fly can grow an extra pair of wings if ether is present in the environment when the fly is born. Any views on that subject? Please note, I am not at all trying to be argumentative here or to prove a point, I’d just like to know people’s opinions.
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11-10-2002, 01:48 PM | #468 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Re: Chance or design?
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The water analogy is lost in the fact that one has nothing to do wqith the other except they reside together in your sentences. If Jesus is literally light then he would be detectable if not visible. This also makes Mary's conception of him somewhat complicated. Human activities ar impossible without the chemical reactions. You propose no tangible mechanism that there is some other mechanism at work. What there is are biological structures that are at a level of complexity above the base chemical reaction. There structures have functionality that accomodate the activities tthat allow the creative process of the writers you mention. These are far easier to measure and comprehend than a non-existant force of mystery. Reducing the subjects to base analogy and ignoring the body of work regarding these subjects is a gross simplification of things that are very complex, but also whcih there is a great deal nore information about than intimated in your theory. It is common practice when trying to prove a concept wrong to prsent the previously held body of material for comparison and debunking. This material might be interesting to discuss in philosophy of religion but it needs much more backing for that.
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11-10-2002, 02:14 PM | #469 | ||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Re: Fast evolution?
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-10-2002, 03:52 PM | #470 |
Elf Lord
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I have another question. BeardofPants, would you mind answering this one? You seem to have a lot of knowledge in this and other fields.
A slow evolution enhances the species, but I have trouble with the environment issue. If a swamp creature is slowly changing into a forest creature, then you have to assume that the environment is changing at an equal or even slower rate than the creature is in order for the genetic changes to be selected. However, if the environment changes too suddenly, then the creature, which is unable to adapt, will have a lot of trouble in the new surroundings. How could evolution keep up with environment? Is environment observed to change at such a slow rate? |
11-10-2002, 04:04 PM | #471 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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If the environment is a gradual change (which is generally the case, except when acted upon by some outside force) - then evolution can keep up. On the other hand the environment has a remarkable way of rebounding from catastrophic events - as has been observed and studied at Mount St Helens.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 11-10-2002 at 04:05 PM. |
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11-10-2002, 05:03 PM | #472 |
Elf Lord
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There is evidence of the deserts in Africa and Asia, such as the Sahara Desert, that they changed probably between the last six thousand to nine thousand years. How does this compute with the slow nature change theory?
Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-10-2002 at 05:07 PM. |
11-10-2002, 05:32 PM | #473 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I found this on National Geogrpahic's website trying to find out about why the Sahara might have dried up.... Quote:
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11-10-2002, 05:57 PM | #474 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I did find this off of Columbia University's website. It seems as if science is still trying to figure out the quick climatic change and basically this is a recent discovery or theory.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 11-10-2002 at 06:06 PM. |
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11-10-2002, 06:13 PM | #475 | |
Elf Lord
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Well, I think that the observed changes in environment are too fast for evolution by slow rate to cope with. That's my opinion and the evidence, as you also helped to point out, indicates fast environmental changes, so I'm interested to see what some of you have to say in answer to this question. Oh, by the way, that was a good idea to look at the National Geographic website! They're a great source of interesting information; we have several of their videos at our house. About those crocs again . . . it says in the selection you have given that they have adapted to the environmental change. It agrees with the dates that I suggested, about it recently (Within a few thousand years) having been a jungle. I might be wrong, but couldn't this be another example of faster evolution? The species alterred itself to adapt from jungle to desert in a relatively quick space of time. Isn't this the same sort of thing that evolution does? And I don't think, Cirdan, that even if you'd classify a fly as a simple creature, the crocodile falls under the same category. That was an interesting selection indeed, jerseydevil. In these ideas I have quoted, I might be all wrong, but I'm interested in hearing what the current theory has to say in response to these subjects. And please, don't just refer me to a book. I'd rather hear your own opinions, as most of you seem already to have researched these things. |
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11-10-2002, 06:18 PM | #476 | |
Elf Lord
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11-10-2002, 06:25 PM | #477 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Also - in terms of the crocodiles - they may have evolved before 8,000 years ago. The other post I did states that the climatic change is believed to occur every 1500 years - but exactly how long has it been going on it doesn't say. Also this theory is new and I don't know if additional information has come out on it since 1998. Was there a period of slow climatic change at some point that would have allowed the crocodiles to evolve and be able to live in the desert? This is possible. By the way - El Nino and La Nina are a recurring climatic change. It has drastic affects on the environment (don't think they're generally long lasting though).
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11-10-2002, 06:31 PM | #478 | ||
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11-10-2002, 06:35 PM | #479 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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11-10-2002, 06:44 PM | #480 | |
Elf Lord
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Of course not- I'm not suggesting that evolution does take place overnight. As I said before, if you drop a waterfrog out in a desert, it'll die.
Right, I was wrong in saying jungle. But that doesn't answer my question about the environment. Evolution in its current form is believed to change slowly over enormous periods of time. Environmental shifts are observed, I think, to be much quicker. Quote:
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