03-22-2005, 04:59 PM | #461 | ||||
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I have to admit that I stole "headdesk" from another message board. I'm interested to read what you post about scientific evidence for Creationism RÃ*.
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03-22-2005, 05:34 PM | #462 |
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I'm getting there with this very post!
(or maybe the next one ) (since I'm in such a strongly minority position here, I have to take my time and lay my groundwork. However, as many people point out, many great scientists have been in the minority position and then been proven right ) OK - so for the last three (or first three): 1. The world as we see it today was created by the God described in the Bible. 2. The world as we see it today was created by a purple turtle. 3. The world as we see it today was created by naturalistic processes. As far as the purple turtle - as it stands, a scientist could just say, OK, well, nice thought. BUT - if that statement is then followed by something like this: "And therefore every night at midnight, people will turn into turtles for 2 minutes." - well, THEN a scientist can comment scientifically on it. THEN it falls into the realm of science - NOT before. That statement that I added PUTS it into the realm of science - that is a statement that is completely testable in the present with repeatable, measureable tests, and it is falsifiable. Now I think it's a very weak deduction, and there could be other reasons why we might turn into turtles, but the point is that before it was outside the realm of science, but this new aspect puts it into the realm of science. And what's more, it's even in the BEST part of the realm of science - the directly observable part. Now if a scientific test shows conclusively that people do NOT turn into turtles for 2 minutes every night, then a SCIENTIST could make a valid SCIENTIFIC conclusion that the premise is not true as it stands. The world could very well have been made by a purple turtle - we'll never know for sure - but given that particular hypothesis (that if it WAS made by a purple turtle, we'd all turn into turtles for 2 minutes every night), it can be proven wrong scientifically. The formation of hypotheses is critical.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-22-2005, 05:38 PM | #463 |
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*lost*
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03-22-2005, 05:45 PM | #464 |
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I'm rather lost too.
But I will say that some of your statements are not based on science. You have to be able to OBSERVE something - but it does not necessarily have to be testable with things in the present. There are many things we see and observe that we see that something is the way it is - but we can not necessarily prove beyond doubt. Do we actually see under the earths crust the plates? or do we just know by the evidence that this makes sense by what we know about volcanoes, etc. No one has gone under and checked that there are plates rubbing against each other - nor have them been actually observed pushing and folding againsat each other. We do however see evidence to suggest this on the surface. But we don't actually observe the plates themselves.
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03-22-2005, 05:58 PM | #465 | |
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OK - now for the last two! Saving the best for last , I will now go over example 3 - the world as we see it was created by naturalistic processes, commonly known as evolution. This one, like the creationism one, is scientifically untestable as it stands. However, Darwin added some things to it that THEN made it come into the realm of science. He added that the mechanisms were pangenes and gradualism and natural selection. And he added things like "IF this is true, THEN we should see the following." And NOW we can analyze it scientifically. Pangenes (that organisms change by USE and DISUSE and can pass these things on, like if a giraffe stretches his necks for high-up food, it will get a little longer, and this will be passed on to the next generation) were found to be scientifically false, by direct observation. This is fine and normal - science adjusts to things. Since it was found to be false, a new mechanism was proposed - beneficial mutations. As I only want to mention evolution in order to make a point about creationism, I'll condense the next two - gradualism was determined to be false on the indirect evidence of the fossil record, and the theory was modified to punctuated equilibrium (or sometimes something similar, don't recall the name). Natural selection is pretty much a given - stronger things survive. BEFORE these things were proposed, the concept of naturalistic evolution was NOT scientifically testable. AFTER they were proposed, evolution WAS scientifically testable, altho just like the purple turtle example, we will NEVER know for sure since we're talking about something in the past, and much of the important evidence is indirect and not in the present. IOW, deductions were made about the mechanisms because of the premise, but the premise itself is not directly testable, because it's in the past. And predictions were made based on the premise. SO - as it stands, option 1 is ALSO not scientifically testable. HOWEVER, if we add mechanisms that ARE inside the realm of science, and predictions that are inside the realm of science, then scientists may now make valid scientific comments on it, just as they do on evolution and its proposed mechanisms and predictions.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-22-2005, 06:09 PM | #466 | ||
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As was posted before and I will post again... Quote:
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03-22-2005, 06:11 PM | #467 | |
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03-22-2005, 06:48 PM | #468 |
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(sorry, ppl, Nurvi asked me to respond to a post in the Theology thead, and now I'm out of time! )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-22-2005, 07:39 PM | #469 | |
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nobody has ever said that giraffes have long necks because they stretched o eat the taller acacias (i believe i posted along these lines in evolution, before the closing period) those which had the longer necks would be able to rech the tops of acacia trees, further from the thorns, and this would be passed on, not because some clever giraffe thought to himself "oh look, my neck is elastic, i will stretch to the top, and tell my kiddies to do the same" Red Queen Effect/Evolutionary Arms Race |
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03-22-2005, 08:45 PM | #470 |
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Yes, somebody has said that - in fact, Darwin did.
Read Darwin's The Origin of Species. It's in there, in chapter 5, "Laws of Variation", under the section "Effects of Use and Disuse". So he was wrong! So what? That was the best he had at the time. I have no problem with him being wrong. My point is that he was wrong and the theory was adjusted accordingly. Darwin was a brilliant man. It's not his fault genetics wasn't very well developed. He went on what he had.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-22-2005, 08:51 PM | #471 | |
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i meant on here, not generally
this is what i posted in the EforE thread: Quote:
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03-22-2005, 08:55 PM | #472 |
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Did you know that's what Darwin thought? I think the evolution of the theory of evolution is very interesting! As I said, it's certainly no bad reflection on Darwin.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-22-2005, 09:01 PM | #473 |
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jus by-the-by, if anyone ever happen to see michael crichton's book 'the lost world', read the chapter called 'problems with evolution' nicely interesting
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03-24-2005, 05:50 PM | #474 |
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I'm coming back today to post here and complete my thought that was started with those 6 options. I'm going to keep it extremely brief, but I want to at least complete the thought. When the fun discussion on the theology thread slows down, I'll get into more detail here
We're down to the final question now, which was: 1. The world as we see it today was created by the God described in the Bible. NOW - this is certainly untestable as it stands, just as "the world came about thru evolution" is untestable as it stands. So let's move on and add some details that ARE scientifically testable. And since we’re still talking about something that happened in the past, we can observe things in the present, but we have to use inference as far as what really happened in the past. The particular model I'll discuss is Young Earth Creationism, or YEC. It’s basically the account in Genesis – the universe was created by forces outside of it in an initial creative act. Assuming this account is true, then we should see the following: 1. In the fossil record, we should see a complex array of living systems, with well-defined features, many of which can still be seen today. Extinction may also be present, just as it is currently. 2. In biology, we should see mechanisms in place that provide for the basic reproduction and stability of living organisms. 3. In physics, we should see laws providing for the conservation of quantity and the decay of quality. SO – with these three statements, we can move on to the scientific evaluation of available data.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-24-2005, 05:52 PM | #475 |
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Brief Scientific Evaluation of Data Fit to Hypotheses
1. In the fossil record, we should see a complex array of living systems, with well-defined features, many of which can still be seen today. Extinction may also be present, just as it is currently. Evaluation: Evaluating the fossil record automatically puts us in the realm of indirect data. The first really abundant fossil layer is the Cambrian. What is actually seen in the Cambrian layer is many, many creatures of varying complexity, from simple to extremely complex. Some of these types are still around in the present time. Examples of things in the Cambrian layer are: sea urchins, sea lilies, snails, sponges, nautiloids, and trilobites. This layer contains almost ALL the major groups of sea life, including the most complex invertebrates, the nautiloids, and the highly complex trilobites. Extinction is evident, just as it is today. All the groups appear as separate, distinct, diversified lines in these deepest layers. 2. In biology, we should see mechanisms in place that provide for the basic reproductive stability of living organisms. Evaluation: Now we are in the realm of directly observable data. What we observe, over and over, is the basic reproductive stability of living organisms. Changes to species are minor, and involve no gain of information, only LOSS of information in response to environmental stimuli. If an animal is bred for a feature, that means it LOSES information for other features, and is unable to gain it back unless bred with an animal with that information again, in which case it would only get back to what it started with. Change always hits limits, and viability is often decreased in order to breed the desired characteristics. 3. In physics, we should see laws providing for the conservation of quantity and the decay of quality. Evaluation: First and second law of thermodynamics, two of the most universally observed laws in science. End of very brief evaluation.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-24-2005, 05:55 PM | #476 |
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SO - there it is, a very brief summary of SOME of the scientific support for this theory.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-24-2005, 05:58 PM | #477 | |
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03-24-2005, 06:02 PM | #478 | |||
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03-24-2005, 07:09 PM | #479 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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By the way - Rian in my opinion is still trying to explain the evidence for creationism by knocking evolution - while trying not to mention evolution. This is demonstrated with her comment about evolution not being testable and comparing it to the idea that god is untestable and that therefore they are in the same league scientifically.
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03-24-2005, 08:20 PM | #480 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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