Why you believe what you believe I

[Ñólendil]

How can truth be defined by relationships? Does whether something is true or not depend on how much everyone agrees, or on how much of a bond there is between religions?

No, I wasn't speaking about the nature of truth. I was speaking about the welfare of humanity on Earth, and potential for more human conflict and pain.

Should the Theory of Evolution have been discarded out of hand, because it served as a root of hostility between religious and nonreligious people, and because it alienated people?

No, certainly not. I am not sure that the idea that evolution replaces religion is such a good one, though. That indeed does breed hostility. I have heard that Darwin went back and forth with regards to faith, but I do know that in his own text he expressed belief in God. I am not here arguing for or against evolution (and I happen to be undecided and largely unconcerned on the whole matter), I am only saying that evolutionists should not say "religion is erroneous and invalid," particular not to a religious person.

People will believe what they will believe, though. At least, one should speak mindfully when talking with certain groups who are likely to be hurt by one's views. And I know you are mindful of such things.

Error buzzer goes off!) Mormons are NOT Christians. They have applied for entry as a denomination of Christianity, but they've been refused repeatedly. With all the liberalism going on now, of course, they might eventually get accepted . But at present, they are not considered Christians.

I would feel very bad if I did not openly consider Mormons as Christians, because Mormons consider themselves Christians, and I don't see anything wrong with this consideration. I acknowledge that they teach things which are not taught by Catholics or Protestants.

There are a couple scriptures about this place. One of them says that some sinful angels are kept there in eternal chains, waiting for the Judgment Day. Yet this is another example of a fallicy in Mormonism. How can you take one verse about Jesus preaching to the dead in prison, in 1 Peter, and make an entire belief based upon the one verse, when you IGNORE hundreds of verses about hell? It sounds like the problem I have with liberalism again, and a little with Catholicism. Picking one verse, people go too, too far, and then often enough ignore the clear contrary teachings.

There is a lot more said about Spirit Prison in other scriptures which Mormons hold sacred, such as The Book of Mormon itself, which they believe is "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" and the word of God along with the Bible. And there are couple other texts which they believe in. So they aren't just going off of one verse in The Bible. "Hell" in Mormonism is the equivalent of Spirit Prison for some. For others Hell is simply seperation from God.

Yes, I know a lot of Mormons are extremely nice. Thanks for telling me some of their religious views. By the way, I still am interested in your emailing me the email address to that Muslim friend of yours. Right now I find myself very much in need of a clear perspective on Islam. I need my lies cleared away

Here again I must sincerely and deeply apologize to you. I am very sorry. It seems you missed my post about this in this thread, my apology. My comment about the Muslim friend was intended to be sarcastic. It was entirely uncalled for, and I should have expressed my opinion in a very different way. The Muslim friend was invented, there is no such person. "Muslim" was a random choice of religious identity. I did not think you would take me seriously, but I should not have said it anyway. I would take it back if I could.

[Nurvingiel]

Heh, looks like you can't escape the hotseat Ñólendil, but I'm glad - your posts are very interesting.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

I would feel very bad if I did not openly consider Mormons as Christians, because Mormons consider themselves Christians, and I don't see anything wrong with this consideration. I acknowledge that they teach things which are not taught by Catholics or Protestants.

Yes yes, all the denominations teach things that are somewhat different from one another. But we are in accord on important doctrines. Mormons have views that would among us be considered unacceptable though. For example, polygamy is accepted in Mormonism. The Trinity is denied, and women are granted few rights. Jesus is believed to have married Mary of Magdalen, and I think several other women, in his lifetime. I wish I had a Mormon missionary on hand to discuss this stuff further with . Much of it is clearly in direct conflict with Christian teaching, though.

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

There is a lot more said about Spirit Prison in other scriptures which Mormons hold sacred, such as The Book of Mormon itself, which they believe is "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" and the word of God along with the Bible. And there are couple other texts which they believe in. So they aren't just going off of one verse in The Bible. "Hell" in Mormonism is the equivalent of Spirit Prison for some. For others Hell is simply seperation from God.

Their baptisms for the dead are based off of one verse from the Bible. I'll drop it, though.

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

Here again I must sincerely and deeply apologize to you. I am very sorry. It seems you missed my post about this in this thread, my apology. My comment about the Muslim friend was intended to be sarcastic. It was entirely uncalled for, and I should have expressed my opinion in a very different way. The Muslim friend was invented, there is no such person. "Muslim" was a random choice of religious identity. I did not think you would take me seriously, but I should not have said it anyway. I would take it back if I could.

I considered briefly that you might not have meant the Muslim literally, but hope for a Muslim contact prevailed . Don't worry about it, I forgive you. No harm done. We're still friends .

[Ñólendil]

For example, polygamy is accepted in Mormonism.

Was excepted in Mormonism. The President (Prophet) of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has since said that polygamy is not the way of God, and should not be practiced. They believe he has the authority to say this, because it is believed that the Prophet literally, and physically sees and hears Jesus Christ.

The Trinity is denied, and women are granted few rights.

That's interesting ... The Mormons I learned from believed in the Trinity. I attended a class on the Holy Spirit at a Mormon church, and it certainly appeared as though they believed in the Trinity. I've never heard that they didn't. I agree that women are granted few rights.

I considered briefly that you might not have meant the Muslim literally, but hope for a Muslim contact prevailed . Don't worry about it, I forgive you. No harm done. We're still friends

I thank you very much. I feel much better now. For what it's worth, my doctor is a Muslim

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

Was excepted in Mormonism. The President (Prophet) of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has since said that polygamy is not the way of God, and should not be practiced. They believe he has the authority to say this, because it is believed that the Prophet literally, and physically sees and hears Jesus Christ.

Really though, if I am to believe the Book of Mormon, Jesus is certainly in no position to speak on this subject .

[Rían]

BOP - why don't you go ahead - I think Finrod is just too busy with his tour! It's been 2 days - the hot seat is growing cold!

Finrod, we'll catch you on another go-round, but please join in with questions

[Lizra]

The hot seat bis growing cold! We need you BoP!

[Finrod Felagund]

I apologize, I thought no one was gonna be on until Monday, so I figured I'd work on my statements...We've got a TV interview in an hour, but as soon as I'm back, I'll post...

Sorry for the confusion.

[BeardofPants]

*gives Finrod a kick in the shins* Hurry up already!

I've got my intro all ready to go if FF pikes again.

[Finrod Felagund]

BOP, since you seem eager, go for it, But I'm ready to be next!

[BeardofPants]

Weeell, if you're sure....

What do I believe? Sometimes, I don't really know, myself. I waver between agnosticism, and strong atheism, depending on my mood. I am a strong proponent for the Theory of Evolution, and I'm not really sure how life started on Earth. I don't think it was divine in origin, though I don't want to completely write anything off. I tend to be "scientific" in my approach to my world-view, and I am fairly certain that if there's more to life than biology, IF there's a divine aspect, that it's not the christian one. As far as I am concerned, the Christian god is a construct invented by historic humans to explain their world, and surroundings from a historic POV.

In terms of the evolution side of thngs, I believe that while there are aspects of the evolutionary theory that need to be further ironed out, the evidence is firm for hominids evolving from a common ancestor with the apes. My interest in this subject matter were such that I spent my time as an undergraduate undertaking a degree in Anthropology, specialising in pre-historic archaeology and biological anthropology. I still have an on-going interesting in bio-archaeology/ paleo-zooarchaeology, and primatology/hominid evolution. To me, these ancestors of ours were REAL, and they are related. It's hard to argue against it when you've personally handled the evidence, and looked at skulls of these "primitive" beings. I look around me, and the evidence is everywhere that evolution is a REAL process. Ultimately, however, evolution is just a theory to explain the development of life here on Earth. It doesn't explain the origins of life, and that's where I waver on my hard-line atheist stance. It is at this point that I don't want to completely write-off a divine origin - though not a christian one.

<edit>

Some other brief thoughts: humans are animals, albeit complicated ones, and morality is a humanly determined construct, and tends to be relativistic with some underlying commonality.

Well, that's enough for starters....

[Rían]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

I tend to be "scientific" in my approach to my world-view, and I am fairly certain that if there's more to life than biology, IF there's a divine aspect, that it's not the christian one.

Could you please give some more details here? Like a lot? And what do you think is true (if anything) that is outside the realm of science?

As far as I am concerned, the Christian god is a construct invented by historic humans to explain their world, and surroundings from a historic POV.

ONLY the "Christian god", or ALL "gods"? Why? Which do you think most likely to be true, if it IS true, and why?

It's hard to argue against it when you've personally handled the evidence, and looked at skulls of these "primitive" beings.

Doesn't the scarcity of human-like remains bother you? (The number of specimens can be counted on two hands, can't they, and typically consist of just a jawbone or tooth, or an occasional femur, right?) I mean, couldn't they be some ape-like form that's now extinct, or some humans malformed by nutritional deficiencies in the environment?

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Could you please give some more details here? Like a lot? And what do you think is true (if anything) that is outside the realm of science?

I'm not sure what you mean by, here. What I meant by my comments was that I don't believe in things like "spirit" "ghosts" "afterlife", etc. There are some aspects of life that make me go "huh?", but generally, I tend to think there's a reasonable quantifiable explanation for everything... sometimes we just don't have it yet.

ONLY the "Christian god", or ALL "gods"? Why? Which do you think most likely to be true, if it IS true, and why?

No, not just the Christian god. I think that all Gods are just constructs. IF there was some kind of underlying spirituality to the universe, I would think that it would be just that - an underlying existence, not an overt, "God in the Sky with a Big Beard" type holy terror...

Doesn't the scarcity of human-like remains bother you? (The number of specimens can be counted on two hands....

No. The fossil record precludes any large numbers of fossil remains surviving. The conditions required for fossilisation are rarely met. Having said that, there is more than a small handful of fossils that HAVE managed to survive the record.

Prominent Fossils
Fossil Hominids

These show a CLEAR progression, rather than evidence of mal-adaptation. The evidence of nutritional deficiency, or even vitamin E deficiency which plagued a lot of H. erectus (rickets) populations after their migration into Europe is vastly different from the "normal" hominid fossilised remains.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

I'm not sure what you mean by, here.

I'm not sure either - I was just putting it out to see what you thought of it. You know my round-about ways! And I don't have some pre-determined "attack" method planned - I just ask questions and go where the answers lead me

IF there was some kind of underlying spirituality to the universe, I would think that it would be just that - an underlying existence, not an overt, "God in the Sky with a Big Beard" type holy terror...

Why?

No. The fossil record precludes any large numbers of fossil remains surviving. The conditions required for fossilisation are rarely met. Having said that, there is more than a small handful of fossils that HAVE managed to survive the record. ...

Thank you for the links

[BeardofPants]

Why do I think that if there IS a God(s) that it isn't a personification of "man"? Because I find the notion vaguely silly, and arrogant. There's a whole universe out there, and the notion that that universe would choose to personify itself as a Man is, to me, ridiculously earthocentric. Reminds me of when people used to think everything revolves around the earth.

[Finrod Felagund]

[ DELETED ]

[Rían]

IF there was a god that created humans with the intent of interacting with them, would you say it makes sense for humans to be somewhat like the god? (and this isn't a "gotcha! Now you believe Christianity!" It's just a reasonable question, IMO)

Another tack - who are some of your favorite people and why? (well, I guess that's a repeat question, but I like to ask it )

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Is there any aspect of Christianity or any other religion that you believe?

[Lizra]

What do you think happens to you when you die?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Lizra

What do you think happens to you when you die?

you rot
and worms eat your brains
and ducks eat the worms
and your family eats the ducks
and so your family eats you when you die