05-31-2007, 06:19 PM | #461 |
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I think that Lief is going to tell you the Black Death was taken as the hand of God punishing people, and therefore WAS the hand of God punishing people, as part of Christ ruling with an iron scepter.
I think the logical flaw here is, Lief, that you're attributing anything bad in the Medieval period to this "iron scepter" conception, while attributing anything bad now to the end of the 1000 year period. I remain convinced that if you did more research into not only what life was like then, relative to now, but what it was like then, in the people's own conceptions (being a bad winter from starvation is poverty, and feels like it, no matter how much relative money you have), you'll find that it does not match up with the picture you're displaying. For example, a much larger percentage of the population was serfs/peasants tied to the land than was slaves. Roman slaves were not the majority of the population, as they had their own hardscrabble farmers and whatnot. Serfs/peasants WERE.
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05-31-2007, 07:19 PM | #462 |
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In the interests of balance, of course, one should point out that your average medieval serf had to work less days to pay off his feudal overlord than your average modern day Briton does to pay off his mortgage.
On the up side, my bank doesn't make me go off and get killed on opportunistic skirmishes. Not yet anyway. This thread needs pictures: King, eh? Oh, very nice. And how did you get that then? By exploiting the workers... etc etc Last edited by The Gaffer : 05-31-2007 at 07:28 PM. |
05-31-2007, 07:26 PM | #463 |
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*snerk*
Great movie!!! "Bring out yer dead!"
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-31-2007, 07:31 PM | #464 |
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Argg... must resist... must resist...
It's a fair cop |
05-31-2007, 07:32 PM | #465 | ||
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Quote:
Also, I don't think it's right. But I don't feel like explaining right now. Oh, it's fun being a woman! Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-31-2007, 07:41 PM | #466 |
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I've said it before, and i'll say it again:
Thank God for the Black death. Serfs you say? Free men i rejoin. Perhaps the greatest blight to ever shape the fate of Man, and Western Civilization, as we know it. But would you want to live through it? really, Lief - some transposing is allowable - but wholesale selling on a late night Thursday basis???? Nay, my friend. Last edited by Butterbeer : 05-31-2007 at 07:43 PM. |
05-31-2007, 11:39 PM | #467 | |
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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06-01-2007, 12:45 AM | #468 |
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no, not at all.
I don't think it's right to try to deceive anyone in a debate, for example, even if it means that you "win". What I meant was that I think the right "agenda" is to seek the truth with integrity, no matter where it leads you.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-01-2007, 01:37 AM | #469 | ||||
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I think that the judgments for modern times will be far, far steeper than those in the past too, because the sins are far greater, and a number of these worldwide cataclysms are recorded in the Book of Revelation. I love how the period from the 17th through the 19th or so centuries is called the Enlightenment and the Medieval Ages "The Dark Ages". It's so interesting . Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-01-2007 at 01:39 AM. |
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06-01-2007, 04:37 AM | #470 | ||
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And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest. [25] And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. [26] But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. [27] For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth. [28] Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. [29] And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. All of which sounds very much like Christ's church is not intended to be the secular (saeculum, of the world) power; that it is dedicated to the ideal that the church can exist and teach morality without being the state; that the kingdom of heaven does not need the kingdom of earth. Quote:
Add to that that life was pretty bad on absolute indicators (e.g. starving) and I do indeed believe you're seeing it as a blessed time only because of rose-colored glasses. As for Rome, I do believe you're generalizing from the Italian peninsula to the entire Empire. The other provinces retained their farmers; that's where most of the Byzantine armies were raised.
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06-01-2007, 08:13 AM | #471 |
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Oh, Count, two pages ago, Rome was an example of democracy, and the Roman Empire a bastion of equal opportunity for social mobility and citizenship. Now they're evil slave holders, as opposed to the fine time everyone was having in the Middle Ages. @@ As both versions use more imagination than history, why debate?
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-01-2007, 08:23 AM | #472 |
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If we don't debate, the terrorists win
Seriously, I enjoy arguing.
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06-01-2007, 08:44 AM | #473 | |
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The first use of 'agenda" was when I said Bible translators had their own agendas. You differed with that, in a post which used the word "claims" a lot. I responded that I would 'claim' what seems reasonable to me. You said, paraphrase, "Then I'll see you as having an agenda." which, btw, is a lot closer to a personal attack than my discussion of the limitations of translation. Gwai brought up my original post, and said "Everyone has an agenda". You responded to that with "The important thing is what the agenda IS." Now that remark was embedded in a lot of stuff, maybe coy and cute from your POV, about a woman's privilege to be indirect and contrary and not explain, which was a fairly odd thing, imo, to bother to post in a debate thread. I mean, it's okay to wait to post until you have something to say. So I asked how it related to the other stuff. In that context it seemed that you were saying either "Bible translators are permitted an agenda because they promote Christianity." or "If I agree with the agenda, it's fine." You say that's not what you meant. So. Now we've caught up to this post. The first sentance references "deceiving in a debate." Who is deceiving, and in what way? Since I'm the one you've already identified as having an agenda here, I'm naturally curious. The second sentance is "the right 'agenda' is to seek truth with integrity, no matter where it leads you." Again, there seems to be a problem implied here. Is someone displaying a lack of integrity, and you feel that's an issue? I haven't been noticing a widespread lack of integrity in these postings, but I'm new around here. You may have more insight into that than I do. But I'm not getting the drift from all this vague hinting around. In fact, the impression I'm getting is that you have a problem with ME. And, since I started here being accused by Lief of being an imaginary person, and because of who I am, generally, I react to such implications, kwim? Perhaps you can clear up my confusion, Rian.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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06-01-2007, 08:47 AM | #474 | |
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Quote:
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May Last edited by sisterandcousinandaunt : 06-01-2007 at 08:48 AM. |
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06-01-2007, 09:30 AM | #475 |
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sis - I've argued/debated/what-have-you with Rian for, oy, it must be over a year now, and I've found her pretty consistently pleasant. What I'd read her post as saying is that the two of you mean something different by "agenda." She means that everyone does/says things with SOME sort of purpose, giving the example of "winning" (via deception, as she put it) vs. "seeking the truth." I think you're using agenda to mean some form of ulterior motive that distorts what you say away from the truth. Those two are close together, but not identical, because everyone does have her sort of agenda, while not everyone has yours.
Rian, I hope that's right; sis, I hope that helps explain why I, at least, don't think Rian is trying to say she has a problem with you. It would seem a bit out of character for her.
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06-01-2007, 10:02 AM | #476 | |
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Why should I be 'agenda with intentional bias', while Rian is 'agenda with noble purpose', such that "her sort of agenda" is contrasted with "mine"? It's swell you think she's nice. I asked here for clarification because she's jumped my hump before, and I'd like her to speak for herself.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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06-01-2007, 10:39 AM | #477 | |||||||
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All one has to do is look at Oman in modern times to see how these laws can be implemented and how effective they can be. Oman has virtually no problem with STDs or AIDS at all today. So it's clear that those kinds of laws can work, and I would need a lot of evidence if I'm to believe they were anywhere near as bad in the Medieval Ages as they are now. But I'll be researching these specifics on my own too, as much as I can find them. Quote:
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I believe that that was also predicted in scripture too, and besides, it ties directly to the chronology I've been advocating. I can get into that more later. Quote:
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We need some data on this, I guess. And I know I'm asking you for a lot of sources in this post, but don't worry if you don't want to do it. I've got to do it anyway, and I'm going to.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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06-01-2007, 10:44 AM | #478 | |
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06-01-2007, 10:54 AM | #479 | |
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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06-01-2007, 11:18 AM | #480 | |||||||
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Hey Lief - what about the rest of the world? "[26] And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
[27] And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father." - sounds like the whole world should be ruled, not just Europe. And it hardly signifies to argue that "Europe was the whole world to them," since God is, theoretically at least, omniscient. Also, I'm not sure how the burden of proof is on me, when you're making the broad claims about a millennium of holiness. But alright: Divorce: Quote:
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