Homosexual marriage II - Page 24

Insidious Rex · 09-23-2008, 01:29 PM

Last I checked marriage does not necessarily equal having children. Faulty reasoning.

***Earniel*** · 09-23-2008, 06:26 PM

Interesting opinion, although an overly romantic view on marriage IMO, although I suppose that comes with his territory. But marrying just to have kids seem to vastly oversimplify the motives of would-be-married-people.

I wonder if the writer realised that his text also seems to imply he is against adoption, single parents and widows or widowers with children. I also can't quite understand from the article why he is against marriage between homosexuals in the first place. Because marriage is oh-so-special and couples who are not biologically capable of getting children on their own shouldn't get any? Hmm, I dunno...

Gwaimir Windgem · 09-24-2008, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

The liberal philosopher Isaiah Berlin famously argued that, in many cases, the real conflict we face is not good versus bad but good versus good. Reducing homophobia is good. Protecting the birthright of the child is good. How should we reason together as a society when these two good things conflict?

It's hard to attribute this to the liberal philosopher Isaiah Berlin; that's basically philosophy 101. Any one who gives it a few minutes of thought will tell you that.

inked · 09-24-2008, 11:16 PM

Ahh, GW, there is evidence on this thread that suggests the contrary to your assumption!

About Philosophy 101, I mean.

But of course this liberal chappie writing the opinion wants to try to retain his liberal credentials (I mean, he self identifies as such but runs contra the accepted, politically correct, platform, anarchist view of individual "rights" that are the "bedrock" of his fellow party members - who earn the historical application of that term by their "inclusivity" to those who break ranks and think rather than swallow the party line), thus he must attribute the appearance of thought to a liberal. To have quoted a "conservative" philosopher would get him first against the wall when the liberal, inclusive, politically correct platformists attain power, or at least cut him out of the loop for the next run when they fail in this one.

Poor chap! I do hope they sharpen the guillotine blade! But probably not for there is no fascist quite like a liberal one, and a liberal mob is genuinely unthinking and fascist and likes to discard its opponents however it chooses to view them at the moment.

sisterandcousinandaunt · 09-24-2008, 11:34 PM

Inked, my pet.

You're maundering, dear.

I know you are not sincerely confused about anarchist/libertarian ends of the spectrum, and the merry hay they play with all political perspectives.

I shall assume you're just amusing yourself.

ElizabethAnnRoger · 09-25-2008, 05:13 PM

Though I do not feel that gay marriage is right, I will not force others to stop. It does not hurt anyone, but it is wrong. All men and women need the opposite sex to fullfill their person. Be that God, or a spouse, that is how we were made.

brownjenkins · 10-02-2008, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElizabethAnnRoger

Though I do not feel that gay marriage is right, I will not force others to stop. It does not hurt anyone, but it is wrong. All men and women need the opposite sex to fullfill their person. Be that God, or a spouse, that is how we were made.

We weren't "made".

Humanity is what we choose to make it.

Empress_Flynn · 10-02-2008, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElizabethAnnRoger

Though I do not feel that gay marriage is right, I will not force others to stop. It does not hurt anyone, but it is wrong. All men and women need the opposite sex to fullfill their person. Be that God, or a spouse, that is how we were made.

I seriously doubt someone who is homosexual would consider themselves "unfulfilled" just because they love someone who is not of the opposite sex...

Love between two people of any sexes or genders should be celebrated, not condemned. As such, marriage between any sexes and genders should definitely be permitted.

inked · 10-02-2008, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

We weren't "made".

Humanity is what we choose to make it.

See, BJ, I knew you'd eventually recognize the choice aspect and reject determinism- either created or "genetic" or societal.

Sure took you long enough, though!

brownjenkins · 10-02-2008, 10:53 PM

I've always said that sexuality is a choice.

Naturally we are bisexual, but we "choose" to be hetero or homo due to both genetic and social influences.

And ultimately, it is deterministic (we don't control anything), but it is still fine to call it choice because that's what it is from our point of view. A behavior that is too complicated for us to trace.

Determinism that humans can't figure out is exactly what the perception of choice is.

katya · 10-02-2008, 11:04 PM

I'm a determinist too, but I still use words like choice in day to day life. Choice is having a number of different paths to go down and picking on (by some determined process).

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElizabethAnnRoger

Though I do not feel that gay marriage is right, I will not force others to stop. It does not hurt anyone, but it is wrong. All men and women need the opposite sex to fullfill their person. Be that God, or a spouse, that is how we were made.

What sex is God? lol

Empress_Flynn · 10-03-2008, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I've always said that sexuality is a choice.

Naturally we are bisexual, but we "choose" to be hetero or homo due to both genetic and social influences.

And ultimately, it is deterministic (we don't control anything), but it is still fine to call it choice because that's what it is from our point of view. A behavior that is too complicated for us to trace.

Determinism that humans can't figure out is exactly what the perception of choice is.

A lot of scientists would disagree with you... there have been a lot of findings that say that there is no choice to sexuality... we're simply born with a preference.

inked · 10-03-2008, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katya

I'm a determinist too, but I still use words like choice in day to day life. Choice is having a number of different paths to go down and picking on (by some determined process).

What sex is God? lol

Both ("in the image of God...male and female") and neither. God transcends sexuality.

GrayMouser · 10-04-2008, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

Both ("in the image of God...male and female") and neither. God transcends sexuality.

But not gender?

***Jonathan*** · 10-04-2008, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

But not gender?

You mean, since we call god things like "the lord" and "the father"?

inked · 10-04-2008, 09:31 AM

All things are contained within God necessarily, therefore "gender" is as well but one must apprehend that since we cannot comprehend God He is not limited to our modes of expression or understanding.

That brings us to the uses of language and the nature of understanding and the nature of God, anthropologically derived or revealed.

But I suspect we should have that conversation on the theology thread...

.

Gwaimir Windgem · 10-04-2008, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

But not gender?

God transcends gender. While God is generally referred to using masculine forms, He is sometimes also referred to using feminine forms (A mother hen gathering her chicks under her wings, St. Anselm and Julian of Norwich).

GrayMouser · 10-05-2008, 10:24 AM

Cool

" I believe in God, the Mother Almighty. Maker of Heaven and Earth..."

Empress_Flynn · 10-05-2008, 10:25 AM

In the interest of fairness...

I think we should pray twice... once using the masculine form and once using the feminine

Gwaimir Windgem · 10-07-2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Cool

" I believe in God, the Mother Almighty. Maker of Heaven and Earth..."

It is generally the Second Person of the Trinity who is described in maternal terms.

09-23-2008, 01:29 PM	#461
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	Last I checked marriage does not necessarily equal having children. Faulty reasoning. __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

09-23-2008, 06:26 PM	#462
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Interesting opinion, although an overly romantic view on marriage IMO, although I suppose that comes with his territory. But marrying just to have kids seem to vastly oversimplify the motives of would-be-married-people. I wonder if the writer realised that his text also seems to imply he is against adoption, single parents and widows or widowers with children. I also can't quite understand from the article why he is against marriage between homosexuals in the first place. Because marriage is oh-so-special and couples who are not biologically capable of getting children on their own shouldn't get any? Hmm, I dunno... __________________ We are not things.

09-24-2008, 11:16 PM	#464
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Ahh, GW, there is evidence on this thread that suggests the contrary to your assumption! About Philosophy 101, I mean. But of course this liberal chappie writing the opinion wants to try to retain his liberal credentials (I mean, he self identifies as such but runs contra the accepted, politically correct, platform, anarchist view of individual "rights" that are the "bedrock" of his fellow party members - who earn the historical application of that term by their "inclusivity" to those who break ranks and think rather than swallow the party line), thus he must attribute the appearance of thought to a liberal. To have quoted a "conservative" philosopher would get him first against the wall when the liberal, inclusive, politically correct platformists attain power, or at least cut him out of the loop for the next run when they fail in this one. Poor chap! I do hope they sharpen the guillotine blade! But probably not for there is no fascist quite like a liberal one, and a liberal mob is genuinely unthinking and fascist and likes to discard its opponents however it chooses to view them at the moment. __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

09-24-2008, 11:34 PM	#465
sisterandcousinandaunt Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,535	Inked, my pet. You're maundering, dear. I know you are not sincerely confused about anarchist/libertarian ends of the spectrum, and the merry hay they play with all political perspectives. I shall assume you're just amusing yourself. __________________ That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May

10-02-2008, 10:53 PM	#470
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	I've always said that sexuality is a choice. Naturally we are bisexual, but we "choose" to be hetero or homo due to both genetic and social influences. And ultimately, it is deterministic (we don't control anything), but it is still fine to call it choice because that's what it is from our point of view. A behavior that is too complicated for us to trace. Determinism that humans can't figure out is exactly what the perception of choice is. __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

09-25-2008, 05:13 PM	#466
ElizabethAnnRoger Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Along side the Emperor of France. Posts: 110	Though I do not feel that gay marriage is right, I will not force others to stop. It does not hurt anyone, but it is wrong. All men and women need the opposite sex to fullfill their person. Be that God, or a spouse, that is how we were made.

10-04-2008, 09:31 AM	#476
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	All things are contained within God necessarily, therefore "gender" is as well but one must apprehend that since we cannot comprehend God He is not limited to our modes of expression or understanding. That brings us to the uses of language and the nature of understanding and the nature of God, anthropologically derived or revealed. But I suspect we should have that conversation on the theology thread.... __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

10-05-2008, 10:24 AM	#478
GrayMouser Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ilha Formosa Posts: 2,068	Cool " I believe in God, the Mother Almighty. Maker of Heaven and Earth..." __________________ Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill

10-05-2008, 10:25 AM	#479
Empress_Flynn Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Everywhere and nowhere Posts: 814	In the interest of fairness... I think we should pray twice... once using the masculine form and once using the feminine __________________ "Even a mirror will not show you yourself, if you do not wish to see." "But remember... clowns make two things around here: balloon animals... and enemies." "If I loved you then I would love you in any way I could, and if we could not touch, then I would draw strength from your beauty... And if I went blind, I would fill my soul with the sound of your voice and the contents of your thoughts until the last spark of my love for you lit the shabby darkness of my dying mind."

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