Muslims

[Grey_Wolf]

No, thankfulness. Of all Western countries Sweden is the one of the most receptive then it comes to muslims. Not to say that the other Nordic countries haven't been generous.

The people presently in power just says: come, come we will give you all you want and you do not have to work. We'll pay for the lot.

So, attacking our embassy was a bit of unthankful act I think. Havent we given enough to them to safeguard their friendlyness. And norway, why attack them. IT WAS A DANISH SLEAZE MAG.

But that goes to show that the muslims think that their racism is ok while any thoughtless prejudices from our part isn't.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

And you'll have to forgive me for disagreeing.

Of course I will .

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Danmark is no islamic land, therefore it is not bound by islamic laws to abstain from depicting the prophet Mohammed. One could argue that they could have chosen not to post it out of respect of the muslim community. However when is something disrespectful and when is it not?

Shouldn't this be the time to err on the side of caution?

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Mostly this is arbitrary, it all depends on the mind of the one at the receiving end. Cartoons about Jesus may seem disrespectful to one Christian, but another one doesn't make a problem to it. At least one group of Belgian moderate muslims have already declared not to have a problem with the cartoons.

I do feel the releasing those photos was disrespectful of the Muslim community. That's what I called "callousness". They may have been largely unaware of how their pictures would be taken, which I call thoughtlessness.

A lot of disrespectful things are published in cartoons, especially about political figures. That annoys me personally, for these are all real people. Being disrespectful of someone should be legal, though I don't think it should be done. Depicting Muhammad is an affront to God in millions of people's religious views. It is an extreme act of disrespect to them, to them rather like mocking dead soldiers would be to us. They have a very different perspective than we do, another frame of mind. It is thoughtless and callous to trample on it.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I won't say I find the printing of the cartoons of very good taste and wisdom. But it's like that quote of (I think) Voltaire: I disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend your right to say it.

I do think it was callous and thoughtless of the paper to publish things that would be so horrible to millions of people. It was also inexcusably nasty of the other European papers to publish even though the Muslims already were reacting. They could not be accused of thoughtlessness- but the callousness responsibility is doubled.

I don't know whether that should be legal or not. Publishing some things . . . I don't know.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I do think it was callous and thoughtless of the paper to publish things that would be so horrible to millions of people. It was also inexcusably nasty of the other European papers to publish even though the Muslims already were reacting. They could not be accused of thoughtlessness- but the callousness responsibility is doubled.

I think that's debatable. The newspapers cite their freedom of speech to be able to print those cartoons, the muslim cite their religious laws to prevent such prints. Does it have to be only one way or the other? Must newspapers be forbidden to print something on the risk that somewhere somebody just might be offended? They might as well close down all together, because as long as there are humans there will be disagreement, and regardless of right and wrong, there always will be two or more opposing sides. You can't please everybody, all you can do is hope that everyone will at least act reasonable.

In the end it is only a cartoon, something that was intended to raise a smile, not to make hundreds of people angry, assaulting embassies and burning flags. I highly doubt the cartoon was meant to give a deadly insult to all muslim over the whole world, some groups certainly don't seem to have perceived it as such either. While his cartoon was certainly a misfire, was that extreme reaction warranted? I tend to say no. Respect and tolerance have to come from two sides.

It reminds me of the situation we had a few years ago in Antwerp. The muslims community wanted to celebrate one of their traditions and therefore needed to butcher a sheep. By law sheep may only be butchered in registered arbatoirs. That law has been implemented for many years and for sanitary reasons. Both things are in essence irreconcileable. Many people didn't want to go to abatoirs, they wanted to butcher the sheep at home, as it was traditional. Should the law be dropped just to accomodate their religious values? Or should the tradition be amended to move the actual butchering to the abatoir?

The only viable and durable way out is IMO a compromise. You can only have a multicultural society if you make compromises. Can you ask a person to show respect for the traditions of a religious group that will not show the same respect to your tradition of freedom of speech? I don't know.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

But that goes to show that the muslims think that their racism is ok while any thoughtless prejudices from our part isn't.

Exactly! They act like they think that they deserve some kind of special, kid-glove treatment, world-wide, whereas everyone else must kow-tow to them. I used to be fairly neutral on this whole Muslim thing, but the more I see unfold in the world, and the more things like this, and the Paris riots, and bombings etc. backed by Muslim extremists, and yada yada yada, the more non-neutral I become. It's getting out of control, and countries world-wide should NOT give them any kind of special treatment in cases like this. It's like the whole drinking water rather than wine at one's own table thing analogy that Earniel laid out.

[Wayfarer]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I definitely agree. However, Muhammad is in a rather different category because there are commands against portraying an image of him in their religious texts. It's a religious rather than a political matter to them.

Originally Posted by Exodus 20:7

"You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

Question: When was the last time you saw Christians rioting and burning flags because somebody misused the name of God in a newspaper article? How many priests or reverends have called for artists and writers to be executed for blaspheming or 'offending Christianity'? For that matter, why don't we hear about all the Buddhist suicide bombings in response to Muslim desecration of their ancient holy sites?

Why do Muslims feel the need to riot and kill and burn any time anyone fails to show them complete deference? I don't know, you think maybe it has something to do with Islam?

Originally Posted by Eärniel

In the end it is only a cartoon

That sounds awfully like the caption from one of the cartoons in question:

'When it comes to the point, it is only a drawing '

[Lotesse]

I ask you - is this a reasonable, fair way to react to A CARTOON??? I mean, it's as if they want to takle any excuse they can think of, ANYthing, to have an excuse to target western countries.

[Rev. Justin Timberlake]

Silly Muslims.

When are they going to realize that Jesus is the only way?

And what is this silly collective intolerance? They should grow a collective funny bone and learn to take a joke from time to time. We could get them started on the dead baby jokes.

I beat a dude called Mohammed at arm-wrestling a few years ago. When he got angry after I exclaimed that “Mohammed sucks”, it left a bad taste in my mouth.

It's called humour. You don't like, so be it. Humour should never be the cause of violence or destruction, unless it's my laptop getting destructed so that I can get a new one with firewire.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Question: When was the last time you saw Christians rioting and burning flags because somebody misused the name of God in a newspaper article? How many priests or reverends have called for artists and writers to be executed for blaspheming or 'offending Christianity'? For that matter, why don't we hear about all the Buddhist suicide bombings in response to Muslim desecration of their ancient holy sites?

Why do Muslims feel the need to riot and kill and burn any time anyone fails to show them complete deference? I don't know, you think maybe it has something to do with Islam?

Jesus said to Christians, "Do not judge, or you shall not be judged." If someone takes the name of the Lord in vain, it is not our responsibility to judge that person. Paul said, "the Lord judges those outside of the church," and added that we are responsible only for those inside the church, because they are part of our witness. If someone is living a crummy moral life and is claiming to be Christian, perhaps he don't belong in your church.

I don't believe the Muslims have any scriptures telling them not to judge others, like we do. They also don't have the "turn the other cheek" teaching. Muslim scriptures say that Islam is in a constant state of war with all non-Islamic peoples, though there can be places of truce. A large number of Muslims interpret that spiritually, I think, but a growing and obviously large number think differently.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I ask you - is this a reasonable, fair way to react to A CARTOON??? I mean, it's as if they want to takle any excuse they can think of, ANYthing, to have an excuse to target western countries.

They're definitely not behaving in a fair or reasonable way. I think they're behaving in an Islamic extremist way that springs from their religion, culture and history. It's freaky .

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Must newspapers be forbidden to print something on the risk that somewhere somebody just might be offended?

Somewhere somebody? Try changing that to "the majority of all followers of one of the world's largest religions."

Originally Posted by Eärniel

In the end it is only a cartoon, something that was intended to raise a smile, not to make hundreds of people angry, assaulting embassies and burning flags. I highly doubt the cartoon was meant to give a deadly insult to all muslim over the whole world, some groups certainly don't seem to have perceived it as such either. While his cartoon was certainly a misfire, was that extreme reaction warranted? I tend to say no. Respect and tolerance have to come from two sides.

No they don't. Or at least, that's not what the Bible says . "Do good to those who hate you," is the Biblical message, not "wait for people to do good to you and then do good to them." I agree that the cartoon was not made maliciously. Change the "hundreds of people angry" to "millions of people angry", please, for otherwise it really looks like you don't know the scale of the protests. There are thousands on the streets in many countries in the EU as well as the Middle East. I think the cartoons were printed innocently at first, though those who continued the printing afterward, after the protests had already erupted, should certainly be held responsible for their callousness. No, the extreme reaction was not warranted, and I definitely don't support what the Muslim protesters are doing. However, publishing something that will anger millions is also not warranted.

I would be very angry if Muslim newspapers started publishing and republishing cartoons mocking the American and European dead in Iraq, even if they think, "well, many of us here in the Middle East don't mind." It would be totally out of taste. It's obvious from the Muslim reaction that they consider this a mortal offense. Printing something that will offend millions of people so strongly is plainly very out of taste.

I suspect that those who printed originally were just being thoughtless. The Europeans who followed their lead are certainly callous and should be more responsible about what they print.

Agh, I'm tired of this whole thing . The Middle East and the West are becoming more and more polarized against one another, and this will make everything much worse. It's so frustrating.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Rev. Justin Timberlake

When are they going to realize that Jesus is the only way?

You keep telling them their prophet sucks and they're collectively intolerant babies, and I'm sure they'll come to their senses soon.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

You keep telling them their prophet sucks and they're collectively intolerant babies, and I'm sure they'll come to their senses soon.

Haha, awesome.

I am totally floored by these events. Anger over an incredibly rude cartoon has somehow taken on a life of its own.

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

I only know what I've seen on TV and read in the papers. In Sweden there have been demonstrations.

A small Norwegian newspaper reprinted the Danish cartoon. Sweden isn't even involved with this!

Originally Posted by Earniel

They were not racist pictures, if I recall correctly, only a cartoon featuring the prophet Mohammed, whereas the Islam forbids depictions of him. Last time I heard not only the Scandinavian countries are targetted, the whole European Union is being generally blamed for it aswell.

The cartoon also depicted Mohammed as a terrorist. This is where you tell the newspaper or cartoonist to %#@& off, not engage in violence.
The cartoonist is an idiot for drawing such a rude and inflammatory cartoon, but studpidity shouldn't result in violence.

I do not understand the situation. The Danish government does not control the newspapers. They can't do anything about this cartoon, and it's not their fault. Newspapers are similairly outside the control of the Norwegian government, and the European Union. It is a free press. Clearly there are great misunderstandings here.

[Rev. Justin Timberlake]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

You keep telling them their prophet sucks and they're collectively intolerant babies, and I'm sure they'll come to their senses soon.

Agreed. But if that doesn't work, fire should be fought with fire.

Why does it always seem like certain Muslims are looking for ways to justify barbarity and destructivity? IMO, most Muslims are like fundie Christians--dormant/mild extremists, if you will. But then you get the proper extremists, like the female suicide bomber I saw on TV last night who thinks she is going to be the prettiest virgin of the 72 in paradise. Clearly she was nowhere near the prettiest.

Perhaps there should be a counter-extremist group who exercise the same level of intolerance of those who would wage “war” over something as silly as a cartoon.

I mean, what are those Muslims going to get upset over next? Instead of suing like good Americans, they act like barbarians. Did anyone see the footage of the Embassy burning? Why are there always those few Muslim crowd-rilers who act like they've lost a child, screaming their hearts out, with funny facial expressions, getting the crowd angrier than it already is. They just wanna burn **** down homes!

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Rev. Justin Timberlake

Perhaps there should be a counter-extremist group who exercise the same level of intolerance of those who would wage “war” over something as silly as a cartoon.

I wish, but then that group would be "extremist" as well. Screw it, it's ALL extreme!! This world is coming to an end. Friggin' barbarians. I'm sick of it; sick of this crap. But - wait a minute - hasn't Islam been on a bender for the last two thousand some-odd YEARS trying to find great excuses to wage war and screw with any country that isn't or won't convert to Islam? That's what Charlemagne was going on about; remember that tidbit of history? Think about it. Religion, all religion, ends up destroying. The extremists in ANY religious faction end up destroying, like CRAZY. Except Buddhists - or wait, am I wrong here? I bet there's even Buddhist "extreme" offshoots that do terrible stuff in the name of what they believe and "the other guy" doesn't or won't believe. I loathe organised religion for this. Not individual's personal, devout, true and clean faith, but ORGANISED, massive, idealistic, paid-for-by-cash, controlling and mind-warping RELIGION.

[The last sane person]

Great, now I want to see the cartoon... Dammit, I've googled it, and all I see are the articles. No actual cartoons. I say that you can publish anything you want, good to cartoon their goddamn charleton (not sure if thats what it is in english) "prophet". And perhaps telling them to run to jesus isnt the best modus operandi, I still dont think I'd give in to calls to curtial my freedom of sleazy cartoons.

[Lotesse]

I know; I've been going nuts trying to find this famous freakin' cartoon. Nothing. Unbelieveable.

[The last sane person]

They are afriad the Mohammedan rabbel will take to the internet? Call Jihad against Google? They are only shooting themselves in their foot.

[Rev. Justin Timberlake]

Two things.

The Muslims shown on TV, burning the Embassy, or even the little brainwashed school children who are being told to shout protests and burn flags....they're all like terrorists in the making. Willing to kill and destroy for something they believe in. Should they not be treated like terrorists? Why is violent religious intolerance any different from violent political intolerance? It's all Kill Kill Kill, Destroy Destroy Destroy. Shouldn't barbarity like this be dealt with? These people have not moved into the 2nd millenium A.D., nevermind the third like the rest of us.

Secondly, yes, such a group would be extremist too. But in the words of the Muslim, war is being waged. Whatever happened to army vs army? Not army vs citizens on the back foot who are forced to a course of action through fear and threatening influence.

This is just as if a terrorist group has responded with violence, after reading a cartoon. It is complete craziness, yet it goes unchecked.

[Lotesse]

Word.

[The last sane person]

How do you intend on checking it? The problem with this bunch, is that when met with some one with guns more then happy to kill them, they melt back into the population then run away, and some innocent people get killed. Then they reappear bold as brass the next day, shout ALLAH AKBAR! *BOOM!* and run away again. That fellow with the RPG that Lotesse posted...If faced with an Israeli in a tank will dissappear right back into that refugee camp and let his fellow muslim people get bulldozed.

[Rev. Justin Timberlake]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I know; I've been going nuts trying to find this famous freakin' cartoon. Nothing. Unbelieveable.

http://michellemalkin.com/ archives/004413.htm

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Rev. Justin Timberlake

Perhaps there should be a counter-extremist group who exercise the same level of intolerance of those who would wage “war” over something as silly as a cartoon.

Originally Posted by Rev. Justin Timberlake

The Muslims shown on TV, burning the Embassy, or even the little brainwashed school children who are being told to shout protests and burn flags....they're all like terrorists in the making. Willing to kill and destroy for something they believe in. Should they not be treated like terrorists?

Are you suggesting that we set bombs off in Muslim marketplaces? If not, just what are you suggesting?