Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Rían]

Originally posted by Epona of Rohan
Hi everyone

Is this thread just for Christianity/the Bible or are there any other religions floating around?

Hi Epona

There was a thread called "what religion are you" where the person just wanted to find out people's religion and background, and they specifically asked for no arguments. I started this 'offshoot' thread when a discussion started up on the other thread that was starting to take up too much time, because I think what they meant by "no arguments" also included "no long discussions". IOW, just quick notes from people with info about their religion and backgrounds.

The discussion that was originally the subject of this thread was something about whether or not atheism was a belief system, IIRC (it's been awhile now! ), but we still haven't covered that, because other things keep coming up! Because I'm a Christian, and I started the thread, it's kind of turned into a discussion on different aspects of Christianity, though, with people asking various questions and discussing lots of issues. You're welcome to bring in other religious POVs, though.

[Wayfarer]

C-Up, C-Left, C-Right C-Up, C-Left, C-Right... Dang! Now I've got that song stuck in my head!

[Rían]

**EDIT**
I changed my mind and decided to send my response via email or PM instead.

[Rían]

**EDIT**

[Diamond]

and go to the land of Moriah,

Heh, randomly, does that make anyone else think of Abraham in front of the Doors of Moria?

I think "Dogma" said it best.

"When are you going to learn? It's not about who's right or wrong. No denomination's nailed it yet, and they never will, because they're all too self-righteous to realize that it doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you have faith."

Di

[Wayfarer]

Your word of the day is... Balderdash!

Having faith is only worth as much as the object of your faith.

[Epona of Rohan]

I LOVE Dogma! The quote I prefer is something like "Its better to just have an idea than a belief"

*runs off to watch the movie again and get the exact words*

[Coney]

Originally posted by Epona of Rohan
I LOVE Dogma! The quote I prefer is something like "Its better to just have an idea than a belief"

*runs off to watch the movie again and get the exact words*

<<<<<The Avatar says it all

[Rían]

OK, this might take a few posts to get everything up, but here goes... I don't know why, but Andúril wanted to reply to the email that I sent him about his Genesis question on Entmoot, instead of PM or email, and asked if I wouldn't mind putting up the post that I took down and emailed instead, so here it is: (I'll have to break it up into 3 posts - the intro to the email and then the 2 posts that made up the email). The only thing I changed was real names to Entmoot names (to protect the innocent, as the saying goes )

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(RÃ*an's intro to the email)

Hello, Andúril. Here is my answer to your Genesis question. I've spent several hours on it. I posted it in the Offshoot thread, then changed my mind, out of consideration to your feelings, and took it down after about 10 minutes. I really don't even think anyone saw it - I checked at the Members thing while I was debating and no one was viewing the thread, which was pretty unusual, considering who was on at the time.

Well, here's my answer - please remember both God and I care for you very much. Very Sincerely, RÃ*an

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Rían]

RÃ*an's answer to Andúril's Genesis question

This is going to be a rather long answer (probably several posts), Andúril, but I'm sure that's no big surprise to anyone that's read this thread! Let me start by saying that about a week ago, I sat down with a pad of paper and actually went thru the entire thread (19 pages at the time) and took notes of people's questions and comments so I could keep better track of what I had addressed and what I still wanted to talk about. One of the things that I had marked was something you had posted, Andúril, about why you are getting a degree in theology, even though you are an atheist. Here is the quote:

by Andúril
I am pursuing a degree in Theology in order to become more informed (thus keeping misrepresentation of theological issues to a minimum), and to lend weight to my arguments. In the words of a Christian author (to me):

An atheist with a B.Th under his belt would be positively deadly.

I don't know about anyone else, but my immediate reaction was: Why in the world would anyone WANT to be "deadly"? I would rather be life-giving. It seemed very sad to me that that concept would actually appeal to someone. Anyway, I marked that post and put it in my "to answer" queue, where it joined many other! (And just in case you didn't realize, God is not exactly shaking in His boots at the prospect of your gaining a theology degree! Nor am I, because He holds me in His hand )

Now this question about Genesis comes up from you, Andúril. Let me just describe the situation in which it came up. (I'm going to assume elvishfaerie is a girl, to make things easier for me in the pronoun department, since she mentions female names). A new thread starts up in General Messages called "Voices". I check it out and read a post from a young girl, terribly frightened and crying out for help and concerned about harming herself and/or others. Now since I've been on the Internet almost 5 months now, I'm not a complete newbie anymore, and sadly I've seen hoaxes like this. However, because there just might be a human life involved, I post anyway, offering the best advice that I could think of. Many other 'Mooters post too - over 20 - and the vast majority are concerned enough, despite its possibly being a hoax, to take time and post and offer their advice. You posted once, Andúril, saying that you had heard voices at one time, but you figured out that they were probably related to a rock singer, and the 'moral' was that your grades had suffered. Hardly very caring advice, but sadly, I wasn't surprised.

Several of us had suggested prayer. Coney saw the prayer advice and wisely pointed out that many people had thought they heard God's voice and committed some harmful acts in that belief. I thought that that was a wise thing to point out, considering the enormity of the stakes involved if it wasn't a hoax, so I amended my post to mention that God would never tell her to do something harmful to herself or others, so if a voice said to do that, then don't follow it. What followed from you, Andúril, absolutely stunned me - you quoted what I had said, then asked about a Bible verse in Genesis and asked me if I thought it was true or false.

What stunned me was that you would quote such a verse at such a time, with utter disregard to what very well could be a frightened and hurting girl in danger of causing herself or others harm, in a prideful attempt to trip me up on an important and complex area of the Scriptures. You virtually walked over her body to fling a "tough" Bible question at me. Although I don't think I have EVER seen you show any concern, if it did not directly involve your own pleasure, towards anyone at any time in your Entmoot posts (at least that I can remember), I was still incredulous, and terribly angry that you would do that. I'm not angry anymore, just deeply, deeply saddened and sorry for you.

(continued on next post)

[Rían]

(to Andúril, continued)

You've told me you real name, and I have prayed for you, even before this incident, that you would come to know and love God and be like your namesake in the New Testament - not the more famous one, but the one "that Jesus loved" and was so very close to Him. I'll continue to pray that for you. And I tell you, Andúril, that if you ever DO become a Christian, you will love God with a deeper love than even I do (and I love Him tremendously), whenever you look back and reflect upon what He has saved you from, because I have never come across anyone with such a callous disregard of other people as you appear to have. That is what the story in Luke 7:36-50 means. Intelligence - and you seem to have plenty - is absolutely worthless without love. And it's not even a merit that you're intelligent, because that came from God! It's what you DO with your intelligence that counts, and frankly, all I seem to see is pretty sad.

So I will add your question about Genesis to my queue, but because I don't even think you're interested in what I have to say about the verse - I think you're just trying to "score" a point in the seemingly endless debate that you think is going on - I'm not going to give it any priority. I have sometimes 'moved up' a question in the queue, if I thought it was appropriate, but I have no intention of moving this one up. If you would like to hear from me on this one, I'm sorry, but you will have to wait until I deal with some other ones first.

I wish you all the best, even now, Andúril. I have to hold back tears when I think of how you must feel in order to act this way. You've probably had some tremendous, tremendous sorrows in your life. God is deeper than any sorrow you can have, and He can heal you, but only if you turn to Him. It's YOUR free-will choice - continue with yourself as your highest authority, or submit yourself to the REAL highest authority, who loves you tremendously and has only good planned for you. I care for you very much, please PM me if you would like to talk any further or if there is anything I can do to help you.

[Rían]

(that's it - the entire text of the email that I sent to Andúril is in the previous 3 posts, with only the names changed.)

[Baby-K]

RÃ*an - I have never taken part in this discussion (I don't like being involved in discussions re religion), however I am now confused & decided to give my 2 cents worth:

IMO Andúril's question seemed rather important (bar the obvious conflict between you guys) - it emphasises a valid point to me, i.e. it is often said that the bible is a contradiction in terms of the written word & the interpretation thereof.

Christians would immediately attempt to explain the interpretation of the command as a test of loyalty (a test that Abraham passed). However, the question still remains, why God would instruct Abraham to sacrifice his son? Keeping in mind that the question was posed directly as result of a post by you that God would never do such a thing?

Please don't take this as a personal attack - I simply wished to clear that up for myself.

[Andúril]

RÃ*an:
I don't know why, but Andúril wanted to reply to the email that I sent him about his Genesis question on Entmoot, instead of PM or email, and asked if I wouldn't mind putting up the post that I took down and emailed instead, so here it is:

RÃ*an initially decided to submit the posts here on Entmoot. She then had the misconception that my feelings had been affected, so she edited the posts out. I have explained the situation, thus alleviating the misconception. Therefore, there is no reason why I should reply via email or PM, especially since RÃ*an initially intended her posts to be seen by the readers of this thread.

More:
Hello, Andúril. Here is my answer to your Genesis question. I've spent several hours on it. I posted it in the Offshoot thread, then changed my mind, out of consideration to your feelings, and took it down after about 10 minutes. I really don't even think anyone saw it - I checked at the Members thing while I was debating and no one was viewing the thread, which was pretty unusual, considering who was on at the time.

This is the misconception mentioned above. I explained to RÃ*an in my reply email that my feelings had not been affected.

More:
One of the things that I had marked was something you had posted, Andúril, about why you are getting a degree in theology, even though you are an atheist. Here is the quote:

I don't know about anyone else, but my immediate reaction was: Why in the world would anyone WANT to be "deadly"? I would rather be life-giving. It seemed very sad to me that that concept would actually appeal to someone.

"Deadly" was meant in the context of debate/discourse.

More:
Anyway, I marked that post and put it in my "to answer" queue, where it joined many other! (And just in case you didn't realize, God is not exactly shaking in His boots at the prospect of your gaining a theology degree! Nor am I, because He holds me in His hand )

God has boots?

More:
Now this question about Genesis comes up from you, Andúril. Let me just describe the situation in which it came up. (I'm going to assume elvishfaerie is a girl, to make things easier for me in the pronoun department, since she mentions female names). A new thread starts up in General Messages called "Voices". I check it out and read a post from a young girl, terribly frightened and crying out for help and concerned about harming herself and/or others. Now since I've been on the Internet almost 5 months now, I'm not a complete newbie anymore, and sadly I've seen hoaxes like this. However, because there just might be a human life involved, I post anyway, offering the best advice that I could think of. Many other 'Mooters post too - over 20 - and the vast majority are concerned enough, despite its possibly being a hoax, to take time and post and offer their advice. You posted once, Andúril, saying that you had heard voices at one time, but you figured out that they were probably related to a rock singer, and the 'moral' was that your grades had suffered. Hardly very caring advice, but sadly, I wasn't surprised.

Firstly, just because someone appears on a discussion board to be "terribly frightened" and "crying out for help" does not suggest necessarily that the situation is true. RÃ*an admits that she has "seen hoaxes like this". She also admits that there might be a human life involved.

Secondly, RÃ*an commits the fallacy of argumentum ad numerum by appealing to the amount of people who offered their advice in the thread, as if that was an indication of the "correct" thing to do, or appropriate behaviour in the situation.

Thirdly, my first post in the thread was not intended to be advice.

[Andúril]

More:
Several of us had suggested prayer. Coney saw the prayer advice and wisely pointed out that many people had thought they heard God's voice and committed some harmful acts in that belief. I thought that that was a wise thing to point out, considering the enormity of the stakes involved if it wasn't a hoax, so I amended my post to mention that God would never tell her to do something harmful to herself or others, so if a voice said to do that, then don't follow it. What followed from you, Andúril, absolutely stunned me - you quoted what I had said, then asked about a Bible verse in Genesis and asked me if I thought it was true or false.

Correct. A yes/no answer, which you have yet to provide.

More:
What stunned me was that you would quote such a verse at such a time, with utter disregard to what very well could be a frightened and hurting girl in danger of causing herself or others harm, in a prideful attempt to trip me up on an important and complex area of the Scriptures.

First, I see no problem whatsoever with "quoting such a verse at such a time".

Second, the quote had nothing to do with the thread starter in the first place.

Third, the importance and complexity of that area of the Scriptures is irrelevant to the question asked.

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You virtually walked over her body to fling a "tough" Bible question at me.

I "virtually walked over her body", did I? I disagree. Also, I didn't think the question asked was particularly "tough".

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Although I don't think I have EVER seen you show any concern, if it did not directly involve your own pleasure, towards anyone at any time in your Entmoot posts (at least that I can remember), I was still incredulous, and terribly angry that you would do that. I'm not angry anymore, just deeply, deeply saddened and sorry for you.

Thanks.

More:
You've told me you real name, and I have prayed for you, even before this incident, that you would come to know and love God and be like your namesake in the New Testament - not the more famous one, but the one "that Jesus loved" and was so very close to Him.

Thanks for praying for me.

More:
I'll continue to pray that for you.

Wow, thanks. My grandmother also prays for me.

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And I tell you, Andúril, that if you ever DO become a Christian, you will love God with a deeper love than even I do (and I love Him tremendously), whenever you look back and reflect upon what He has saved you from, because I have never come across anyone with such a callous disregard of other people as you appear to have.

Well, I certainly hope so!

More:
That is what the story in Luke 7:36-50 means. Intelligence - and you seem to have plenty - is absolutely worthless without love.

Intelligence is worthless without love? What am I to do?

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And it's not even a merit that you're intelligent, because that came from God!

Yes, that is something that a person like me would obviously believe.

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It's what you DO with your intelligence that counts, and frankly, all I seem to see is pretty sad.

Well then cheer up!

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So I will add your question about Genesis to my queue, but because I don't even think you're interested in what I have to say about the verse - I think you're just trying to "score" a point in the seemingly endless debate that you think is going on - I'm not going to give it any priority.

I am interested. I asked a yes/no question. Easy. Quick. Why are you taking so long to do something that you could have done in a minute?

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I have sometimes 'moved up' a question in the queue, if I thought it was appropriate, but I have no intention of moving this one up. If you would like to hear from me on this one, I'm sorry, but you will have to wait until I deal with some other ones first.

I have no problem with that. But surely if you are going to spend hours typing an email message, why didn't you just answer the question?

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I wish you all the best, even now, Andúril.

Even now? Thanks!

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I have to hold back tears when I think of how you must feel in order to act this way.

How must I feel?

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You've probably had some tremendous, tremendous sorrows in your life.

Nope.

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God is deeper than any sorrow you can have, and He can heal you, but only if you turn to Him.

So he can't if I won't? Thanks for the sermonizing, though.

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It's YOUR free-will choice - continue with yourself as your highest authority, or submit yourself to the REAL highest authority, who loves you tremendously and has only good planned for you.

Planned? What do you mean by "planned"? And I like how you used "free-will choice" in the same sentence.

[Andúril]

More:
I care for you very much, please PM me if you would like to talk any further or if there is anything I can do to help you.

Yes, I know you care for me very much. Your email shows how much you care. Once again, thanks.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Baby-K
RÃ*an - I have never taken part in this discussion (I don't like being involved in discussions re religion), however I am now confused & decided to give my 2 cents worth:

IMO Andúril's question seemed rather important (bar the obvious conflict between you guys) - it emphasises a valid point to me, i.e. it is often said that the bible is a contradiction in terms of the written word & the interpretation thereof.

Christians would immediately attempt to explain the interpretation of the command as a test of loyalty (a test that Abraham passed). However, the question still remains, why God would instruct Abraham to sacrifice his son? Keeping in mind that the question was posed directly as result of a post by you that God would never do such a thing?

Please don't take this as a personal attack - I simply wished to clear that up for myself.

Hi Baby-K, I'm glad you put in your 2 cents Don't worry, I don't at all take it as a personal attack, and I'll try to answer your question, but I warn you, it will take some time, because one of the most important events in the Bible is being forshadowed here - IMO, the 'loyalty' aspect is only a minor point. But if you have patience, I'll do the best I can, and maybe some other Christians could join in too with their understanding of this Scripture passage.

And BTW, just to clear up a minor point, I was speaking DIRECTLY to the thread-starter when I said God would never tell her to harm herself or others. She is not Abraham . Also, BTW, Isaac WAS NOT KILLED! God Himself prevented that.

I need to attend to some duties now, by the time I get back home you'll probably be in the middle of your beauty rest , and weekends are a notoriously bad time for me to get long posting done, but I'll see what I can do.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Andúril
Yes, I know you care for me very much. Your email shows how much you care. Once again, thanks.

Hi, Andúril - I just wanted to drop you a quick note before I have to run off to my daily duties (I'm already late for a meeting, but BECAUSE I care for you very much, I'm willing to be late). You'll probably be asleep by the time I can start answering your posts, but in the mean time, could you please consider re-wording some of your answers in a more direct way? You don't have to, of course, but for example, your comment that I just quoted is a perfect example. Your first sentence says one thing, but your second contradicts it in a sarcastic manner.

What I assume you mean is "I really find it hard to believe that you care for me, because some of the things that I read in your post seem to be very uncaring. Can you explain how you can say that you care for me and yet say the things that you do in the post that seem uncaring?" Do you see what I mean? If we are really going to communicate, which I would really like, it would help if you spoke more directly, so I don't have to guess at what you're really trying to say. Does that make sense? If so, would you just look thru your posts and see if you can clear any of your comments up?

Well, I'll get back to this thread in 4 or 5 hours, but let me just make the quick observation that caring for someone doesn't mean only saying nice, fluffy things. If you see someone that you care for sitting on railroad tracks, having a great time, but there is a train coming - you don't say nice fluffy things like "oh I'm so glad you're happy playing on the tracks!" If you TRULY care for them, you warn them of the dreadful harm you see coming as a direct result of their actions.

[Andúril]

RÃ*an:
You'll probably be asleep by the time I can start answering your posts, but in the mean time, could you please consider re-wording some of your answers in a more direct way?

Done.

More:
You don't have to, of course, but for example, your comment that I just quoted is a perfect example. Your first sentence says one thing, but your second contradicts it in a sarcastic manner.

How, pray tell, does the second contradict the first?

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What I assume you mean is

*snip*

Wrong, sorry.

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If we are really going to communicate, which I would really like, it would help if you spoke more directly, so I don't have to guess at what you're really trying to say.

My particular brand of sarcasm relies on ambiguity. Luckily I am hardly ever sarcastic.

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Well, I'll get back to this thread in 4 or 5 hours, but let me just make the quick observation that caring for someone doesn't mean only saying nice, fluffy things. If you see someone that you care for sitting on railroad tracks, having a great time, but there is a train coming - you don't say nice fluffy things like "oh I'm so glad you're happy playing on the tracks!" If you TRULY care for them, you warn them of the dreadful harm you see coming as a direct result of their actions.

Thanks for the life lesson. This paragraph has cleared up many misconceptions that I had about caring. Thanks!

[Lizra]

In reply to Rian....
Yes! Don't you just LOVE IT when people actually ask what they want to know, or respond to a question with a direct answer! My poor husband....I'll say something.....he'll say "what do mean by that", ready to play some man/woman "read my mind" game. My answer is usually "just what I said!" with a nice look! ewwww!
Say what you mean! (my father would always "bark" out "Cut the crap!")