Gays, lesbians, bisexuals

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I don't think he thinks those things, and I've read the same posts that you have. Since you think he thinks a certain way, and I think he thinks a certain way, and what you think he thinks doesn't match what I think he thinks, then one of us (or both of us) is/are wrong, so I think we should let inked say what he thinks he thinks, don't you think so?

*dizzy* I think you think too much.

[Rían]

.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Please provide quotes where inked says the things IRex says he said, and please provide scientific proof that IRex can read inked's mind.

I would take that as a priori

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Being of African origin is not a behavior.

Being gay is??? Oh, yes, I forgot, it's OK to be gay as long as you don't indulge in any of those those pesky behaviours.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Where are you getting that someone said gays are a burden on us?

Here for example.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And if there is a gay man standing next to me, then I"ll encourage HIM to vote for what HE thinks is best for society. But would he do that for me? Would you? Who's the more liberal here, anyway?

I think you are confusing the "conservative-liberal" spectrum with the "supine-argumentative" one. If the gay man was voting to ban religion, my guess is that you would be a wee bit more vocal in your objections.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And if you define "liberal" as removing restrictions, then why stop at homosexual marriage? Why not remove ALL restrictions? The simple reason is that YOU have YOUR opinions on what you think is right, and so do I.

Ah, yes, it's all relative.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I'm not homophobic, but it seems like some here are dataphobic, if it doesn't support their opinion.

I don't think you are, though some of your views are similar to those of homophobes, hence I guess you find yourself sharing a platform with them from time to time. Would you discourage homophobia amongst such people?

No-one here is dataphobic (nice word!), either. They are, however, rampant contextuophiles.

[Insidious Rex]

This is a very telling first person narrative from a gay man who spent the first 35 years of his life tortured by his sexual persuasion because of how his family, his culture, and his religion were in direct conflict with what he felt was his undeniable identity. I think this account shows well that being gay in an intolerant culture can be severely crippling to ones emotional and psychological development and stability.

Since most articles posted in here are mostly biased screeds on the health consequences of the “gay lifestyle� I felt it would be useful to show the other side of the coin for once so that the misconception of uncaring in your face gay promiscuity and emotionless unsafe liaisons - which according to some define being gay - can begin to be countered by direct accounts of gay people suffering horribly by trying to pretend they are something they aren’t because of the pressures of the religion and culture they were born into. Clearly this shows you cant force someone into a box in which they don’t fit simply because you are comfortable with that box yourself. Because when you do you can cause damage as noted below… and this would seem to speak volumes to the dubiousness of the whole “design� concept if you ask me…Why design a person to be damaged when attempting to adhere to the “norm� as dictated by a religion or by a culture?

A Journey Toward Acceptance and Love

by Greg Chapman

October 3, 2005 · What do I believe? That the stories I tell myself shape my truth, my soul and my life. I was raised to be a good Baptist and to be a patriotic American. I was raised to believe Catholics were idol-worshippers, liberals were communists and that black and white never mixed. God filled the background, ready to condemn me into Hell. God saw everything bad about me, knew every wayward thought. I was born with original sin -- I had no chance. At the same time, being a white American provided me a sense of privilege, of being one of the "better" people.

As I grew older, I began to struggle with my sexuality. Every day I battled against demons driving me to impurity. I resisted and then I would succumb to unholy thought. I came to believe that I was an abomination, a thing hated by God. In search of a wife, I tried a dating service. Defeated, I waited for someone to take pity and love me. The idea of faking who I was to satisfy others turned my stomach. I came to believe that if I punished myself enough that God would show mercy and cure me of my wrongness.

I drove myself deep into depression. I remember my Bible group talking about how they kicked someone out for refusing to stop being gay. My blood chilled and my heart hiccupped. I remember my family asking me what was wrong with me. Why wasn't I dating? My sense of being less than fully human festered. I stopped going to church. I gave up on ever being loved. By age 35, I had no more than a few hugs as the lifetime sum of my physical intimacy. My skin cried in deprivation. I had no hope except that one day things might improve if I endured. And then they did.

I started to change the basic stories of my life: that I'm bad, alienated from God, a freak of nature. I started to love myself and to believe the Divine did so as well. As that belief strengthened through the repetition of story, I began to love others and I was loved back. The racism I grew up with faded. The more I loved myself, the more beauty I saw in everyone else. The more I healed, the more I viewed the Bible and all of our great myths as stories told by others, and I looked more and more to my heart to find the right one for me.

In six months, I joined with my life partner of five years and counting, became an Episcopalian, and replanted my political beliefs. And this I believe: the right story is the one that helps me to love myself the most, to create the most, to love others and to support them in their creations. For it is for those awesome experiences that I believe we are here. So I'm gay. And now, after decades of struggle, I tell a good story about it.

[Lotesse]

BTW, I love the word "screed"!

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

this would seem to speak volumes to the dubiousness of the whole “design� concept if you ask me…Why design a person to be damaged when attempting to adhere to the “norm� as dictated by a religion or by a culture?

EXACTLY!!!!!

[inked]

Weel, wha' abou' tha screeds of homosexuals wha ha' lef' tha lifestyle:

http://exodus.to/testimonials_left_HomoSexuality.shtml

and

http://www.couragerc.net/index.html


Or does your screed only count if it's the politically correct one?

Data show that re-orientation occurs in > or = to 30% of individuals who self-identify as homosexual with psychiatric intervention.

The most damage is done to the most people by stating untruths about the nature of choices of behaviour and the consequences of the same.

[brownjenkins]

see... i told you he's an instigator!

just answering questions?!?

[inked]

Who's instigating whom?

[Lotesse]

to inked, in re. #446, 3 posts up: What? English, please.

[inked]

Try Scotty's pronunciations from the real Star Trek~ !

[Lotesse]

Ohhhh. Riiiight.

[Nerdanel]

I don't think this is the right thread for this, but it might be for the people visiting this thread..

When the wish most compulsory school students (in Finland) have is to be normal, it has to mean that they aren't. That must mean most of them aren't normal. Can that be true? Or do we have a wrong idea of what is normal?

I believe that in some ways, we all have our own special characteristics, that in the end makes us all different. To make people understand that might help them (us) accept other differences.

Are you normal?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by inked

The most damage is done to the most people by stating untruths about the nature of choices of behaviour and the consequences of the same.

Right. Because thats what the religious right tends to do when it comes to homosexuality. Insist its a choice and that they need to change it because they need to be normal like everyone else. Yes you are correct thats very damaging...

As for the homosexual "conversion" programs you site, people will need to note that they consider agreeing to be celibate as "curing" someone of homosexuality when its nothing of the kind. In fact most studies have found that the percentage of individuals who actually state they no longer feel any homosexual feelings and instead desire the opposite sex after this “curing� program is nearly 0%. Meanwhile countless gays like the guy above are lost in the cracks of an intolerant rigid culture in which their very nature is considered an abomination. How bout giving us some programs to "cure" people of being left handed or "cure" people of being non-white skinned while yer at it too. Probably just about as easy…

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Nerdanel

Are you normal?

Im Abby Normal.

[Lotesse]

I am not, nor ever will be, "normal," and it is my fervent hope for myself that I never even get CLOSE to being "normal." Normalcy is conformity. Blech.

[Lotesse]

Let's get some programs out there to "cure" people of narrow-mindedness, "cure" them of religious dogma and the compulsion to denigrate those who do not or will not "convert".

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Nerdanel

I believe that in some ways, we all have our own special characteristics, that in the end makes us all different. To make people understand that might help them (us) accept other differences.

exactly!

it's the fear of the different... something as old as mankind itself... it is hard to overcome, but it's what can seperate man from animal

[Nerdanel]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I am not, nor ever will be, "normal," and it is my fervent hope for myself that I never even get CLOSE to being "normal." Normalcy is conformity. Blech.

It's abnormal to be normal, so to say.

[Nerdanel]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

exactly!

it's the fear of the different... something as old as mankind itself... it is hard to overcome, but it's what can seperate man from animal

It maybe could separate man from animal.. But it hasn't yet, now has it?

[Lotesse]

Animals are not separated from us by the fear of the different. Crippled or albino or "different" animals are constantly being picked on by their peers. Has anyone seen "The Story of the Weeping Camel," where the momma camel had a hard time learning to accept & love her baby who was born a rare white camel? Stuff like that.