The Anti-theist Thread

[afro-elf]

You expect me to believe it with no convincing facts. That's what people did with a flat-heliocentric earth. I've been repeatedly told that one thing or another 'is a fact'. And yet i've never been given any reason to believe it.

wayfarer i find this strange since you finally said

Ok radio dating

after we answered your critques of it.


as

But I do claim that Christianity makes more sense than anything else.

so does the invisible pink unicorn

[afro-elf]

You expect me to believe it with no convincing facts. That's what people did with a flat-heliocentric earth. I've been repeatedly told that one thing or another 'is a fact'. And yet i've never been given any reason to believe it.

wayfarer i find this strange since you finally said

Ok radio dating

after we answered your critques of it.


as

But I do claim that Christianity makes more sense than anything else.

so does the invisible pink unicorn


I've seen you ATTEMPT to deride non-christians however it does seem that you have put any convincing arguments the other way


i'm for sexy elf goddess of carnal/intellectual pleasures

[afro-elf]

actually she is the LOW maintence elf goddess of carnal/intellectual pleasures

[afro-elf]

BOP


once were warriors is one of my favorite films and i thought the scene after grace was raped and she was walking down the street will the christians singing how great life was, was striking

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by afro-elf
BOP


once were warriors is one of my favorite films and i thought the scene after grace was raped and she was walking down the street will the christians singing how great life was, was striking

Yes, it's a very disturbing film. I like it how Rena Owen's character was so strong, and so confident of her culture, especially at the end, when you see how weak Jake the muss, is, and how 'europeanised' he had become. Which leads me to another aspect, all together, of Christianity - how it 'converted' and 'deprived' indigenous peoples of thier culture, and identity. I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the pacific, and oceanea, Christianity has had a HUGE impact on the indigenous cultures. It's actually really sad, because when the missionaries came out in the 1800s and did their conversion thing, I don't think they quite realised the damage they were doing (culturally, and biologically). Now many of those cultures are lost, never to be recovered. Where's the justice in that, I ask you?

[Andúril]

From the Theism thread:

1) God is omniscient
2) God knows his "future" actions.
3) God can not perform different actions to those already known to him.
4) God has no free-will.

I shall call this argument A, and I have already discussed it in Theism.

Argument B is from another perspective:

1) God has free will
2) Free-will involves the ability for God to excercise choice.
3) Omniscience involves 100% accurate foreknowledge
3) If a choice needs to be made, then there was no 100% accurate foreknowledge of the resultant choice made.
4) Therefore God does not have 100% accurate foreknowledge
5) God is non-omniscient.

Although I referred to an argument of this sort in the other board, I will discuss the reasoning here.

Looking at (2), we see that choice is a necessary aspect of free-will, if not equatable. So if one claims that God does have free-will, then God is given the ability to excercise choice - from this we progress to (3).

In (3), if there is any level of uncertainty as to the action that would be taken (when there is a selection of two or more actions), which necessitates a choice, it is this uncertainty which can be held as the logical equivalent of a lack of 100% accurate foreknowlege. If 100% accurate foreknowledge of the action taken existed, then there would be exactly zero percent uncertainty. An example:

"Which way are you going to go, Bob? Left or right?
"I will go left, according to my perfect knowledge of the future."

But does that take away choice? If understood correctly, it is the defining characteristic of omniscience that neccesitates 100% accuracy, likewise it is the characteristic of 100% accurate foreknowledge that controls someones actions.

After all, if someone acted contrary to his foreknowledge, the foreknowledge would be innaccurate.

From these two arguments, it is clear that a side must be taken; either God has free-will, or he is omniscient - he can not be both.

And this is the problem: if God is claimed to have both free-will and the attribute of omniscience, he can not exist. Does the bible claim both of these qualities? It definitely claims omniscience; free-will (as a quality in its own right) I think will be much more difficult to find advocated by the bible, yet it may be in there somewhere.

In this case I leave it up to anyone here to show me where in the bible it is claimed that God does indeed have free-will or choice or some quality of similar nature, although I can understand why you would not want to after this:

1) If God exists, he must be omniscient and have free-will
2) Omniscience and free-will are contradictory qualities (from A and B).
3) A being can not be both omniscient and have free-will (from 2)
4) God can not have both qualities (from 3).
5) God does not exist (from 4 and 1)

[BeardofPants]

If God is all powerful, does that mean that he could build a ditch so wide that he could not leap over it?

[emplynx]

Response to Afro-Elf
If you want proof of a god, look around you. God created everything you see. Typical circular christian reasoning. The christian assumes his conclusion.
If you want proof of a god, look around you. A most-impossible bang of nothing created everything, even you and me. Typical evolutionary reasoning. The evolutionist assumes his conclusion.
If there's no god, who created everything? Another circular argument. You're assuming there was a creation. Maybe everything always existed, and just changes form?
Everything came from nothing? So I am a result of an explosion of nothing?
Prove there isn't a god. Look around you. No gods. No spirits. No heaven or hell. No devils. Prayer doesn't work.
Prayer works, no doubt abou that - ever heard the story of George Muller? I will tell ya if you havn't.
You always look for facts, but nobody can ever know every fact in the whole universe. Do you need to examine every square in the universe, to be sure a round one doesn't exist?
?
If Jesus came streaming out of heaven, right now, you wouldn't believe it.
I hope every day he will stream out of heaven and take me home like he said he would.
I wasn't brainwashed as a child; I examined all religions, and found Christianity to be the most credible. If you've really examined all religions, you'd come to the conclusion that all gods are the result of primitive minds trying to explain the unknown.
I was "brainwashed" as a child, I don't know what to day...
Secular historians such as Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, and others, mention Jesus. Do they mention they met Jesus? That they personally witnessed miracles, or saw him alive after the crucifixion? If not, what use is their hearsay reports of what others told them
Did you ever meet Christopher Columbus or witness him come to North America? If not, why use is their hearsay reports of what others told you.
Over 500 people saw him after his death! It is a strong as most other history!
The apostles died for their beliefs, so it must be true.
The died because the saw Jesus alive after he died from crusifiction.
You have to be able to read the bible in the original Hebrew & Greek to really understand it. So the people who spend their lives translating the bible, don't know what they're doing, and you do?
I don't understand all of the Bible, I don't think anyone does
You've never been to Paris (the moon, etc.) but you believe in that, don't you? I've seen cities. I don't doubt that more exist, than I will visit in my lifetime. I've never, in all my life, experienced a spiritual being, a soul, a deity, or a convincing miracle.
I've never seen your brain, does it really exist?
You don't have an open mind. Correct. I'm proud to have a closed mind. I reject all forms of ignorant mythology and superstition.
I don't have an open mind either...
You're illogical. I'm not the one who believes in a hebrew war god who killed his son over a fruit tree dispute.
Don't know anything about killing a son by a hebrew war god...
Your arguments (authorities, sources, etc.) make me laugh. This, from someone who quotes from Hebrew folktales involving talking animals
Most of your arguments don't make me laugh. Have you heard the bible story about Balam's Talking Donkey. :-)

The Second Law of Thermodynamics proves evolution is impossible. The Second Law of Thermodynamics says energy input from an outside source is needed. Have you noticed the Sun in the sky?
"There is a general natural tendency of all observed systems to go from order to disorder, reflecting dissipation of energy available for future transformation—the law of increasing entropy." Doesn't sound like anything is going to get better naturally!

The whole universe is perfectly designed, and proves there is a creator. Perfectly designed? So, why is there a winter? Ticks? Mosquitoes? Tapeworms? Fire Ants? Cancer? Sunburn? Leap years?
I believe all bad started in the world with the fall of man, but what we think is bad may not be imperfect in the great scheme.
It's not about science and facts and logic, it's about faith. Faith is just a fancy term for "wishful thinking." Christians wish for a god who loves them, an eternal life, and damnation for all those who don't need that crutch.
Sorry you feel that way
There are no Atheists in foxholes. Actually, there are no Christians in foxholes. Why would a Christian hide in a foxhole, if he really believed in a Heaven? Why do Christians wear seatbelts, and go to doctors? Why aren't they all in a hurry to get to heaven?
We are not in a hurry because we want a big crowd there, including YOU! We want a big old party! Jesus said "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Heaven or judgement
Miracles prove god is real. Miracles do seem to occur in direct proportion to the ignorance of the observer.
also sorry you feel that way
My prayers have been answered. Let's try an experiment. I'll pray for a pizza. If it doesn't get here in 30 minutes or less, will you admit there is no god? 1000 hours of prayer will never beat ten minutes of honest work.
Just because your prayers are answered doesn't mean you will get exactly what you want, "no" is an answer.
Christians have been healed through prayer. If prayer really healed, doctors would be out of business. In fact, every time a sick child dies at the hands of praying Christian parents, it proves there is no god
Every time a medicine doesn't work does that prove it does ever work? God works in his own way, he doesn't have to heal all.
Any god who creates a sentient being out of dirt, knowing the being will be damned to hell, should have left the dirt alone.
We are not cursed to hell, it is a choice we can make though.

[emplynx]

For you atheists, I question you, "What would it take?"
Some of you just don't think that our god is a loving god and can't imagine why we would believe in him. Some of you just believe in science. What would it take for you all to believe in God?
I would like to tell you that whether or not you ever believe in him, he believes in you and loves you, so when you realize that everything on earth is going to fail you every once in a while, try God, he's a cool guy!

[Rána Eressëa]

Originally posted by emplynx
Everything came from nothing? So I am a result of an explosion of nothing?

Well, there's "we came from an explosion of gas - NOT nothing" and there's "we came from God", who you claim is self-existant.

Where'd the gas come from? It was self-existant

[Wayfarer]

Anduril:

1)A self-esistant god does not have to be in any universe. Nor does he have to be constrained by any laws but those of his own nature.

A (poor) analogy would be this: You, operating in three dimensions, can draw a (hypothetically) two dimensional figure. This figure has length and width. However, you can operate in a completely different dimension (height) and so can go above or below it without any problem.

Now, a four dimensional creatuer would be equally unconstrained by a Cube. A Five-Dimensional creature would be able to slip around a tesseract.

Likewise, God is easily unnaffected by time.

I'll try and come at this from a different angle. I can view an MPEG one frame at a time, sequentially, and I can only edit the frame I'm on. God can see the whole thing, and can edit all the frames simultaneously.

As I walk down the street, I see what's around me. If I were to fly above the city, I could see the whole thing at once.

Your entire argument rests on God being limited by the same things that you are. I find it funny that, after all the athiests I've known who refuse to believe in 'some old man in the sky', you're trying to convince me that's what he is.

BoP: I don't know. I'll ask him sometime.

Afro Elf: Anyone willing to believe in God, does. Anyone who refuses, does. It comes down to faith either way. Don't accuse me of blind faith and then turn around and rely on it yourself.

Emplynx has answered your last post quite well. I may or may not get around to commenting on the few before that. I probobly won't, with the rate this thread has been growing lately.

All:

I have yet to see anyone who has a real understanding of Christianity. All the the problems which you have had with the church, and all the things which you see wrong in religion, are things on which I share your views. Perhaps you'll encounter some real christians who will change your mind, but I doubt it.

[Cirdan]

So god is an ape like superhero traveling through all time and space to greate a universe filled with billions of galaxies, so that on one tiny little spec of dust a species hairless apes could spend thousands of years killing, raping, despoiling the earth. Then a chosen few of the creator's "special friends" can come and spend eternity hanging out and making small talk. Why wouldn't god create a species with similar powers so they would have a more equal relationship? Or was the arrongance of men who wrote the bible so great that "we were created in his image" seemed reasonable?

god made man, but he used a monkey to do it
apes in the plan, the world's in ruin
i can walk like an ape, talk like an ape,
do what monkeys do,
god made man, but a monkey looks like him too

god's going to automatically "pass" the righteous? I thought we were all sinners. Some are just "holier than thou" I guess.

[emplynx]

Originally posted by Cirdan
Then a chosen few of the creator's "special friends" can come and spend eternity hanging out and making small talk.

Anyone can come! No "chosen few".

Originally posted by Cirdan
Why wouldn't god create a species with similar powers so they would have a more equal relationship? Or was the arrongance of men who wrote the bible so great that "we were created in his image" seemed reasonable?

Don't know the answer, try asking him.

Originally posted by Cirdan
god's going to automatically "pass" the righteous? I thought we were all sinners. Some are just "holier than thou" I guess.

Romans says "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." and Galatians says "Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."" All who have faith in Jesus are righteous, any one can do it!

[Wayfarer]

So god is an ape like superhero traveling through all time and space to greate a universe filled with billions of galaxies, so that on one tiny little spec of dust a species hairless apes could spend thousands of years killing, raping, despoiling the earth. Then a chosen few of the creator's "special friends" can come and spend eternity hanging out and making small talk. Why wouldn't god create a species with similar powers so they would have a more equal relationship? Or was the arrongance of men who wrote the bible so great that "we were created in his image" seemed reasonable?

I don't know where you're getting off, but my God (in the Bible) expressly told the Israelites "You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape" Do you think he would have said that if he had a physical for which resembled man?

Secondly, God could have easily created millions of other inhabited worlds. I don't claim to know.

'Chosen Friends'? Hasn't it been repeatedly said that heaven is open to anyone? It's not those who god chooses, but those who choose god, who will enter in.

Man is like God, but infinitely less. Just like a 486 is a computer, but immensely less powerfull than a 2.2 Gig processor.

god made man, but he used a monkey to do it
apes in the plan, the world's in ruin
i can walk like an ape, talk like an ape,
do what monkeys do,
god made man, but a monkey looks like him too

I have some strange idea that that should have rhymed. Oh, forget it, nevermind.

God doesn't have to walk, being omnipresent. He doesn't have talk in the same way that we do, either. As for what he looks like, I addressed that above.

god's going to automatically "pass" the righteous? I thought we were all sinners. Some are just "holier than thou" I guess.

God passes those that ask him to, and he makes them righteous along the way. Sweet deal, huh?

[afro-elf]

If you want proof of a god, look around you. A most-impossible bang of nothing created everything, even you and me. Typical evolutionary reasoning. The evolutionist assumes his conclusion.

Nope I don't believe in a CHRISTIAN GOD. All I say is that nature is self existance. just as you say god is.

Everything came from nothing? So I am a result of an explosion of nothing?

see answer above

Prove there isn't a god. Look around you. No gods. No spirits. No heaven or hell

I don't see any of the above. please just show me.

Did you ever meet Christopher Columbus or witness him come to North America? If not, why use is their hearsay reports of what others told you.

nice attempt but i can see the result of europeans here. i've see boats. i've never seen anybody raise from the dead and neither have you

I've never seen your brain, does it really exist?

a really bad example on your part. the brain is a physical organ. i have SEEN brains in jars and in photos. BUT have you seen a soull, or heaven or hell or spirits

Don't know anything about killing a son by a hebrew war god...

i thought you read the bible

"There is a general natural tendency of all observed systems to go from order to disorder, reflecting dissipation of energy available for future transformation—the law of increasing entropy." Doesn't sound like anything is going to get better naturally!

your error here is that the sun is STILL providing energy or let's say enough energy. it may burn out someday but still does not mean that is not energy producing

you will die some day but you still produce sperm. justm because you will day someday does that mean you never could produce sperm>

Just because your prayers are answered doesn't mean you will get exactly what you want, "no" is an answer.

think of all the needless suffering and the people who pray for relief and don't get it. maybe its because there's no one listening

all i have to say is post hoc ergo sum

Don't know the answer, try asking him.

for an all powerful being his communication skills are rather weak

[BeardofPants]

Archaeological Breakthrough!
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...dinovomit.html?

"British scientists have discovered the world's oldest fossilized vomit, believed to have come from a large marine reptile 160 million years ago.

"The vomit fossil shows the remains of dozens of squid-like shellfish that were eaten in great numbers by ichthyosaurs, large marine reptiles (related to land-dwelling dinosaurs) common in the warm seas of the Jurassic era.

"We believe that this is the first time the existence of fossil vomit on a grand scale has been proven beyond reasonable doubt," said geologist Professor Doyle."

Pictures, too! I find it amazing that some one cares so much about the vomit of ancient, extinct creatures. Will anyone care to notice mine in eons to come?

[Wayfarer]

That article is still funny, BoP.

[jerseydevil]

Well I can quote the Koran and it doesn't make me believe what it says either.

I didn't "lose" faith. I grew up Catholic - but the whole thing makes no sense. Also - I've seen too many people that claim that Jesus rose from the dead disclaim so many other things that are more probable.

I just don't believe in a god period. Is it possible there is one- yes it is. Anything is possible. Is it probable - not really.

Since this is a anti-theism thread - and we're supposed to be discussing that - why don't you guys believe in evolution? Science is approaching proof that we did evolve and still are evolving. The church swore the sun revolved around the earth and that the earth was the center of everything. We now know that that is not true. Do you still believe that the earth is the center? The church believed that the earth was 60,000 or how ever many years old - we now know that is not the case through science. Why do you think that some people are so afraid to find aliens. One reason is because man being the center of "gods" creation would be thrown completely out if we found more advanced civilizations. Finally - man at one time thought that the moon was made of cheese - we now know it's not - it's actually lego blocks.

It is far more statistically probable to find more advanced civilizations out in the universes than it is that god exists.

If god is all knowing and the bible was "written" by him - then why doesn't it mention anything outside of what the people in the middle east knew? The ice caps are never mentioned, north america isn't, dinosaurs aren't in the bible at all, the mammoths. Nothing isw in the bible other than what the men living in the middle east knew about. That's why I don't believe.

[afro-elf]

Afro Elf: Anyone willing to believe in God, does. Anyone who refuses, does. It comes down to faith either way. Don't accuse me of blind faith and then turn around and rely on it yourself.

again from your previous statements

you conceded that there were some facts some concrete evidence
something empircal these were YOUR own words

so how is it COMPLETELY blind if there is at least SOME variable support?

you admited that you couldn't prove god with facts ( something empircal) ( at least this is how i interpeted it)


so don't say it is COMPLETELY blind

[Khadrane]

Finally - man at one time thought that the moon was made of cheese - we now know it's not - it's actually lego blocks.

I saw a funny commercial about the moon being made of cheese. Just thought I'd share that.

, dinosaurs aren't in the bible at all

I beg to differ. In Job, God talks to Job about the "Behemoth" (I think that's how it's spelled)
I'll post it here.

Job 40:15-18
Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox. What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly! His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are close-knit. His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron.

Sounds like a dinosaur to me!