Why you believe what you believe I

[Pytt]

well, this is very offtopic, but i'm getting real confused of all these ,IIRC, abridgments
please anyone, make a list of the most general ones, and when i think about it, all which are in use on this forum. it's very vonfusing.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

I'll go if there's no-one else... 'sides, time to swing back to an atheist, huh?

Yes, I like variety in my meals ... um, discussions!

BoP, I'd love to have you go next, if we don't hear from Finrod by tonight. Let's give him 24 hours

Fire up the barbie!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by pytt

well, this is very offtopic, but i'm getting real confused of all these ,IIRC, abridgments
please anyone, make a list of the most general ones, and when i think about it, all which are in use on this forum. it's very vonfusing.

I'm sorry, pytt, I don't understand what you mean ... what do you mean by "abridgments"?

[Pytt]

all this IMO and IIRC and stuff. sorry, i should have choosen another word. but don't bother, Telecontar answered me

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

I'll go if there's no-one else... 'sides, time to swing back to an atheist, huh?

Yeah! Sounds good to me!

[Rían]

oh, I see - "abbreviations". Yes, they're kind of confusing, but quick to type!
I'm glad Telcontar was able to help

[Rían]

(BoP or Finrod, whoever is going next - please go ahead with your initial post - Finrod if he shows up soon, BoP if he doesn't - I'm usually not on the Moot on weekends, so start the party without me, and I'll join in Monday )

[Ñólendil]

I thought you were going to say "and blowing the house down"! )

LOL. I wonder if I'm the Big Bad Wolf, or which little piggie you are.

Because I want to see what effects different worldviews have on people. To me, a worldview that promotes, for example, active charitable works is a good one and one that I would want to look into more. And it's not simply a matter of "promoting", either - a religion can "promote" something and its followers can ignore it - I'm looking for actual heart changes for the better as a result of a worldview.

I'm not sure what sort of findings you'll come to from examining Hindu scriptures, or what you will decide after I respond here. I don't mean to write here as someone who is in the hotseat, I mean only to write so much because I think you curiousity should be answered properly.

I'm not sure that any religion I have been a part of (Hinduism or Christianity), or any religion I have studied (such as Buddhism) have made me more charitable, or kind. I think over the years I have grown more compassionate in small ways, but I don't know what to attribute that to. A lot of things, I guess. Mostly experience--but I'm not sure what experiences. I could say that painful experiences have made more compassionate, but the same experiences might just make some other person more bitter.

The first religion I became a part of was Christianity. I wasn't raised under any religious teaching, and no one in my immediate family attended a religious service until 2000, when I decided, on the surface for reasons I later considered selfish, that I wanted to be baptised, and that I wanted to start attending Church regularly. I just wanted some relief from pain. My mother had been "traumatised", as she would say, by Catholic School and had anxiety about attending Churches. My father wanted to go to Church, but he wanted us to be with him when he did, and both my parents decided they wanted their children to decide for themselves. But as I have said I decided to attend Church. The United Church of Christ gave me a lot more hope than I had before that. It also introduced me to my first religious community, and I met a lot of great friends there. Above the doors to the church I attended were the words "This house shall be a house of prayer for all people." And on the banners hanging in the Church itself, ringed around the symbol of the congregation, was "That they may all be one." These things really stuck with me, although, so has pretty much everything I learned there.

One day, still suffering from severe depression, I saw a book at Barnes & Noble, called Live in a Better Way, (Reflections on Truth, Love, and Happiness from His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I thought it might help me, so I picked it up. His Holiness is wont to say the same thing repeatedly, each time from a different viewpoint so that different factions or faiths can understand what he is saying, and relate. But included in these viewpoints of course was his own faith, that of Buddhism. So I was introduced to Buddhist ideas. It took me a very long time to understand the ideas, but once I did, it made a lot of sense, and I felt very good about it. The complexity gave way to utter simplicity a wonderful way, and I started drawing connections between Buddhism and Christianity. Christ and Siddhartha ("the Buddha") were very similar figures, and Angels were rather like Buddhas, and nirvana could easily be the Kingdom of God. Buddhism also contained ideas that did not seem to be expressed in Christianity, such as karma and mindfulness. Mindfulness helped saved my life.

Before I tell you how, I think it is signifigant to know I went through a period where nearly everything almost fell into doubt, though not despair. I imagine, or guess, that this happened partly because I was attempting to mix religions, which is an easy way to doubt everything Then I realized that I knew only one thing, just one. "In the end, everything will be alright." I think this thing really prepared me for what was to come.

Others have shared some personal, and relevent experiences here, so I don't mind sharing that a very interesting book was sent to me for Christmas from my aunts, called Living Buddha, Living Christ by Thich Nhat Hanh. He seemed to be speaking my language. In his book, he shared a fragment of a breathing exercise used in light meditation. As you breath in, you say, concentrating on your breath, "Breathing in, I calm my body,", then, exhaling, you say "Breathing out, I smile." Inhaling, "Dwelling in the present moment," exhaling "I know this is a wonderful moment." Then repeat with "Breathing in, I calm my body." Shortly after new years (which I understand is a common time for such a thing, though I did not realize the date) I tied to commit suicide (this is in 2003). In the hospital, I was the only one to be found, sitting up on my bed, meditating with this exercise. When I got to "Breathing out, I smile," as Thich Nhat Hanh instructed, I tried to force a slight smile across my lips. After about ten minutes of this exercise, I could not stop smiling. After fifteen minutes I was laughing for joy. When the meditation was over, I would feel a little better, but it took a miracle to save me, which I won't get into here as I don't think it was related quite to one specific religion or another. Suffice it to say that, two months later during my second stay in the hospital, I wanted to live very badly. I remember that I had and have some good friends at Entmoot who were really worried about me. And I got a very nice phone call

During that time I did not consider myself a Christian or a Buddhist, unless I was both. In fact, two of the things I wanted people to remember me by, when I was going to die, was the Holy Bible and my statue of the Buddha (also a Christmas present), which I wanted to represent "The Truth That I Know". I wanted people to know that, although I no longer wanted to live, I at least had hope, and I never stopped believing.

[Ñólendil]

After the hospital, during my time of healing, I decided it was time to look into a third faith. I wanted to find out what else was out there, and it was a part of my yearning to be a part of something other, which I have mentioned. I started reading up on Hinduism, and through the internet I found a temple somewhat near me, and asked my dad if we could attend. So we did, and I have learned a lot. Hinduism reinforced, but did not replace, many of the things I learned with Christianity and Buddhism. It gave me an idea of a One in the Many, and a whole different outlook of God which did not seem to me to conflict with what I learned elsewhere, but rather complimented it, and dazzled me with further views of the Truth, expressions of words I had only felt in wordless sentiment and conviction. The harmony of all religions, and the Lord of Love inside every sentient being, really took my heart away. The idea of one soul which sustains us all, the soul of all souls, and God as both Person and Reality, like a link between the other two faiths I had explored, but something that could stand on its own. It inspired me to write Hindu fables and poetry, and allowed me to look and see reality in a different way on my daily walks. I could see the rock, and the tree, and the stranger, and my brother, and say "there is Brahman". Then I lived in a Hindu Monastery for a few days, in which I gained some really amazing experiences through contact with some really amazing human beings. I was invited to stay there by one of the ministers (Swami Sarvadevananda) because I had a realy nice conversation with him, in which I expressed my own desire to be a monk.

I have since learned that I am not at all ready to be a monk. But it doesn't change the wonderful, wonderful experience of living a monk's life for three days. Just to talk with one of these monks, or nuns, was a real treat. I want to go back and see them, as I have not been in a while. I miss Saradeshaprana, whose name I have mispelt, a lovely woman with a bright smile who says normal things people say, but seems to mean it so much more. "Dylan! It is so good to see you!" I would frequently bring a new friend to temple, and she would joke that I was their spokesperson, and should be their recruiter. She was the one I first talked to on the phone, and she it was that recommended I sit in on a lecture given by Swami Sarvadevananda called "Ramakrishna: The Symbol of Universalism". I heard that lecture, and felt a deep desire to know more, and also a deep appreciation for Vedanta. My mom and brother could always tell when Swami Sarvadevananda had been talking to me, because I seemed to actually know what I was saying when I said it. I spoke with my own voice, but something was more careful about the words I used, something more precise and happy, though they knew I didn't mean to speak any differently. Talking with Swami Sarvadevananda on the phone once, I began "Swami, I am not very religious, but I am spiritual," to which he replied "Don't be religious--be spiritual. Spirituality is the cream of religion." Of course he wasn't telling me not to be religious in general, he was suggesting it was okay to just be spiritual, as he himself, obviously, was a very religious person.

And I since became a Hindu, or perhaps realized that I had chosen Hinduism. It was the sort of the result of everything I did and believed, just as, with Christianity, I had become a Christian because that's what happened when you get baptised and go to Church regularly.

Another amazing person at the temple is Swami Atmatatwananda (they'll be a quiz later on these names, btw ), called by the other monks "Shiva", which was apparently one of his other names. Shiva is a ball of energy waiting to burst out in song and dance. He's a fireball carried in a wonderful vessel in the shape of an old man. When he talks with you, he's very present, but one gets the idea that he has an infinite amount of things to say. I wrote a poem about him, in the Creative Writing forum, under "spiritual poetry". I think it's called Among the Flowers. One day before the lecture I heard someone whisper to another: "This will be a lecture unlike any you have heard before." Sure enough, Swami Atmatatwananda appeared, said his prayer, and proceeded to tell us that we going to do something "shocking and rude". He said it with a smile. He then invited a guitarist on stage, and passed out lyrics to old Baptist Christian songs. He was raised in the South. Normally a lecture takes place in complete silence, with only silent prayers being offered by the listeners. So you can imagine the sight of a temple full of Hindus smiling, and clapping, and sharing pages of lyrics with one another, singing all the while. Swami sang up on stage with the musician, and I believe he played his own instrument, and we all laughed and were glad. Atmatatwananda was also, it is interesting to note, a Lord of the Rings fan. We were driving together one day to get some flowers for the convent's garden, when he commented that some tress on the sidewalk looked very Entish. I turned back and said incredulously "You're a Lord of the Rings fan?" He said the books were recommended to him by another Vedantist, and decided (with a twinkle in his eye) that there might be a connection between the books and Vedanta Of course he also acknowledged it was a very Catholic work.

You might notice that it was more difficult for me to describe what Hinduism has done for me, than it is with Buddhism or Christianity. I don't know why this is. Perhaps I applied myself more to the practice of Hinduism than I did to the others. Or maybe Hinduism is just what fits me most, or vice-versa. I don't know. But I know you can see that it has had very positive effects on me.

So, I think this little summary of the past four years of my religious life may give you an answer to your curious, honest, and perfectly valid question about Hinduism's relationship to me.

I really am sorry, everyone, if I have been rude to anybody.

The fact is, whether we live many lives, or just one, life is too short to get angry with one another.

I've received a lot of nice compliments from people. Thank you all very much.

[Finrod Felagund]

And thank YOU for sharing...

I guess can go next....but its 5 am and I just got back from a tour, soooo....I'lll post later, this afternoon or evening!

[Nurvingiel]

I'm glad you're up Finrod.

I didn't want to be the first to reply after Ñólendil's amazing post. Thank you so much for sharing your real life experiences with us, it was very meaningful, and not something you see often on Message Boards.

[Lizra]

Wow! Glad you found a sort of "map" to help you find your way Nolendil! I think I can almost remember being *lost* like you were. Being young is very difficult, or it certainly was for me. I (sometimes) painfully found my pathway out of youthful confusion by nuts and bolts experience. I was too suspicious of words!

[Rían]

Thank you so much for answering my question like you did, Dylan. Those are the types of posts that I was hoping for (and that I've seen here already) - ones that share openly and honestly and thoughtfully and courageously.


Finrod, you're up, eh? I prob. won't be back on until Monday, but please, everyone, go ahead. And Mr. Felagund - *puts on stern mother look* - no checking in only every 3 or 4 days while you're in the seat - you need to really try to get here daily during your hotseat time. You're just gonna have to let Orodreth run your kingdom while you're away ... (wait, didn't you try that once? ) See, there's this little switch, and these wires running under the carpet, snaking towards the chair, and I just might push the little switch if you don't show up enough ...


Bopper - you're "on deck", if that will work out with your shed-ule Get those buns ready!

[Lief Erikson]

Wow. I've just finished spending two and a half hours catching up reading everything that's been written here since I left off. Very heavy stuff, excellent food for thought. Thank-you so much, Ñólendil, for sharing with us both your personal experiences and your learning.

I have to walk out of the house this second, abruptly. I'll be back to finish this post soon .

EDIT:

Okay, still haven't left exactly yet. I've really enjoyed hearing what you have to relate on Hinduism, Ñólendil. I've sometimes found it difficult to understand, because of us having different definitions for words, or the use of metaphor. Things like that sometimes can be tough to grasp.

I just have one final point to make.

Sorry, can't make it now- must run.

EDIT:

Back now, after 30 minutes running and walking about the land outside the house, busy on family matters.

Okay, my final point. Yes. My final point was about our arrogance in believing that Christianity is correct, and things that deviate from truth as related in the Bible are lies.

The best example I could see offhand is from our own discussion, earlier. You were vehemently objecting to anyone perpetrating violence in any form to anyone else. Whether I was fighting a demon or a lie, I was wrong, and if I was definitely wrong if I was attempting to kill a human being. I think that killing human beings actually can be the right thing to do sometimes, and in some cases not killing them would be sin. You have a definitive view on this, that I am incorrect. I do not believe that your belief in this makes you arrogant. I do not believe that if I tried to conflict your belief in . . . say . . . cells, your discarding my belief on this matter would be arrogant. I think that belief in a worldview does not make one arrogant, even if you don't question it easily, and even though (I say though, not if, here) it is conflicting in even its deepest essentials with those of millions, probably billions, of other people in the world. The number of people you're in agreement with or disagreement with does not show how arrogant a view is. Galileo saw that truths about the solar system that no one else would accept, and he was the only one, going against massive learning, against religious thought, and I believe against the current scientific thought. Even though he thought ALL those religious people were WRONG, that did not make him arrogant. It shouldn't really be considered "frightening" either, in my opinion. My belief that even though billions of people in the world disagree with my worldview, that they are wrong and most of them going to eternal destruction, is not arrogant. It may be incorrect, but I don't believe that an accusation of arrogance is well founded.

Hmm, was that it? I'm used to talking for a much longer time duration . I think that was all.

It's been a pleasure discussing these things with you, and learning what I have on Hinduism. I hope to learn more in the future!

Best regards,
Lief

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Bopper - you're "on deck", if that will work out with your shed-ule Get those buns ready!

Does that mean you have a bun in the oven?

My excuse for this Anduril-esque comment is that it's 3am. Oh my, it's 3am! I'm going to bed, but I excpect some action on Monday Finrod. I'm sure you won't disappoint us.

[Ñólendil]

Lief, I think you must have misunderstood something I said. I never said you were arrogant in believing Christianity to be correct. I certainly never used the word "arrogant". Perhaps you had read someone else's post?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

Lief, I think you must have misunderstood something I said. I never said you were arrogant in believing Christianity to be correct.

Oh, I know that. I thought I read somewhere back there that your . . . One thing I love about the Internet is that when my mind abruptly goes completely blank, no one notices . . . . ahhh, yesss, yes. I thought you had a problem with Christians thinking that people of other religions were wrong and going to hell. Was that an error?

[Ñólendil]

Oh, I see. No, that was not an error. I do have a problem with that, but I don't think it makes you arrogant. I just don't think such a view helps anybody out. It would seem to alienate people, and for some, serve as the roots for hostility against non-Christians, and vice-versa.

There is a similar, and yet almost opposing view in Christianity, which is that held by Mormons. They believe that nobody goes to Hell. Some do go to "Spirit Prison", but this is a temporary place where souls go for healing, or to learn about and accept the Gospel. After all of this is done, everyone is reborn, and then eventually make it to one of the three levels of Heaven. So everyone goes to Heaven. This would seem to be opposing to your view that many go to hell. The similar part, I find, is one of the primary attributes of all those who go to Heaven (everyone): Mormonism. Everyone becomes a part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which is viewed as the One True Faith, and the only complete church (because of the Prophet and the Apostles, and other things). So everyone goes to Heaven, but at the same time, everyone becomes a Mormon. Hence the missionaries. I am not knocking the missionaries, from whom I have learned all these things. They are some of the nicest people I have ever met, and I miss them a lot.

But I do have problems believing in either model, because as I have noted, I don't think anyone benefits from this belief, and the gaps between understanding and good relationships between one religious faction and another become wider.

But I think we have been through this.

[Lief Erikson]

How can truth be defined by relationships? Does whether something is true or not depend on how much everyone agrees, or on how much of a bond there is between religions?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

Oh, I see. No, that was not an error. I do have a problem with that, but I don't think it makes you arrogant. I just don't think such a view helps anybody out. It would seem to alienate people, and for some, serve as the roots for hostility against non-Christians, and vice-versa.

Should the Theory of Evolution have been discarded out of hand, because it served as a root of hostility between religious and nonreligious people, and because it alienated people?

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

There is a similar, and yet almost opposing view in Christianity, which is that held by Mormons.

(Error buzzer goes off!) Mormons are NOT Christians. They have applied for entry as a denomination of Christianity, but they've been refused repeatedly. With all the liberalism going on now, of course, they might eventually get accepted . But at present, they are not considered Christians.

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

They believe that nobody goes to Hell. Some do go to "Spirit Prison", but this is a temporary place where souls go for healing, or to learn about and accept the Gospel.

There are a couple scriptures about this place. One of them says that some sinful angels are kept there in eternal chains, waiting for the Judgment Day. Yet this is another example of a fallicy in Mormonism. How can you take one verse about Jesus preaching to the dead in prison, in 1 Peter, and make an entire belief based upon the one verse, when you IGNORE hundreds of verses about hell? It sounds like the problem I have with liberalism again, and a little with Catholicism. Picking one verse, people go too, too far, and then often enough ignore the clear contrary teachings.

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

After all of this is done, everyone is reborn, and then eventually make it to one of the three levels of Heaven. So everyone goes to Heaven. This would seem to be opposing to your view that many go to hell. The similar part, I find, is one of the primary attributes of all those who go to Heaven (everyone): Mormonism. Everyone becomes a part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which is viewed as the One True Faith, and the only complete church (because of the Prophet and the Apostles, and other things). So everyone goes to Heaven, but at the same time, everyone becomes a Mormon. Hence the missionaries. I am not knocking the missionaries, from whom I have learned all these things. They are some of the nicest people I have ever met, and I miss them a lot.

Yes, I know a lot of Mormons are extremely nice. Thanks for telling me some of their religious views. By the way, I still am interested in your emailing me the email address to that Muslim friend of yours. Right now I find myself very much in need of a clear perspective on Islam. I need my lies cleared away .