Iraq

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
Then if America is the biggest buyer of oil from Iraq then surely America makes the most profit from the existing sanctions?

I think that if sanctions were relaxed to allow Russia and France to trade with Iraq (as per their pre-Gulf War contracts) it would be a good thing.. Saddam is never going to feed/give medical treatment to his people with $'s that come from America (why would he want his people to be grateful to America for anything?) and as America is the biggest buyer of Iraqi' oil is it not time that is it not time that the biggest buyer was a country not quite so antagonistic towards Iraq.

Yep Russia would make Billions if sanctions were lifted, and the country could certainly do with the income. Iraq would also make billions, and that has to be good for the Iraqi' people. Maybe Saddam would be willing to spend money on his people if the money came from fair trade after completion of a contract(s) signed with France and Russia more than a decade ago.

The money gets funneled through Saddam for one simple reason, he can pull the plug on existing oil exports at the drop of a hat.

We could stop buying Iraqi oil and it wouldn't do anything to the US. Nothing is perventing others from buying Iraqi oil.

So America is the bad guy for this attitude - "Saddam is never going to feed/give medical treatment to his people with $'s that come from America (why would he want his people to be grateful to America for anything?)"?

These are just more examples of no matter what the US does - it's viewed as our fault.

France and Russia like the way the sanctions are right now - because there are loopholes that allow them to sneak in and sell things that would not be permitted under the smart sanctions. I suppose this is America's fault too.

I love how everything bad with the UN is America's doing and everything good that the UN does is the UN's doing. It's just great.

Also - it might be good to point out again that Saddam Hussein NEVER complied with the previous UN resolutions in order to get sanctions removed. Should we just removed them because 10 years have gone by and the people are suffering? It's his fault - not America's. If he complied with the previous UN resolutions - the sanctions would have been lifted.

Also - do you REALLY think that if sanctions were lifted and Iraq was making billions that it would go to the people???

[Coney]

But isn't the only way to get oil to participate in the food-for-oil program? How then can anyone "buy" oil?

If he doesn't comply to the current sanctions then why on earth would Saddam comply with smart sanctions? It has already been stated the much "back door" trading goes on through "loopholes".......... I find it amazing that anyone would think that further tightening sanctions, to the detriment of not only Iraq but also Russia and France would ever be accepted.

I couldn't care less how the rest of the world views the USA, when did America ever have a good reputation in the eyes of other people? I'm not a citizen of the USA so I don't have to worry about it. What I am concerned with is how the actions of the USA effect the country I live in. If you don't think that America deserves it's reputation then surely you have to ask yourself why so many people think America has that reputation.

I honestly do not know if Iraq's money would go to the people, all I know is that people are starving and dying from disease in Iraq today and it looks like they will continue to starve and die tomorrow. It is pretty obvious that food-for-oil with America as the biggest buyer is proving only to keep more people suffering.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
But isn't the only way to get oil to participate in the food-for-oil program? How then can anyone "buy" oil?

So is America the only one with food in this world?
Oil for Food Program

If he doesn't comply to the current sanctions then why on earth would Saddam comply with smart sanctions? It has already been stated the much "back door" trading goes on through "loopholes".......... I find it amazing that anyone would think that further tightening sanctions, to the detriment of not only Iraq but also Russia and France would ever be accepted.

Well everyone argues that the Iraqi people are suffering and it's America's fault. So we have proposed smart sanctions - yet it seems as if you think that the current sanctions are America's fault. You stand up for Russia and France and Iraq blocking aid from getting to the Iraqi people - but it's still America's fault. The smart sanctions would only tighten up what should not be getting into Iraq - but would allow more humanitarian aid in.

I couldn't care less how the rest of the world views the USA, when did America ever have a good reputation in the eyes of other people? I'm not a citizen of the USA so I don't have to worry about it. What I am concerned with is how the actions of the USA effect the country I live in. If you don't think that America deserves it's reputation then surely you have to ask yourself why so many people think America has that reputation.

America has this reputation mostly because everyone feels superior by laying all their problems on America's doorstep. It prevents themselves form having to face the facts and live up to their own short comings. The problems in the middle east were there LONG before the US was involved. And as I have said in previous posts that have been deleted - most of the Middle Easts and Africas problems today are a left over from England and France's colonial days.

I honestly do not know if Iraq's money would go to the people, all I know is that people are starving and dying from disease in Iraq today and it looks like they will continue to starve and die tomorrow. It is pretty obvious that food-for-oil with America as the biggest buyer is proving only to keep more people suffering.

So what do you propose? Eliminate the sanctions? Let Saddam Hussein get off scott free? Why not argue that Russia and France should look beyond it's self interest (as is repeatedly stated that America should do) or why not get mad at Iraqi leadership for letting their people suffer - while it's ruling party live in splendor.

[Coney]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You stand up for Russia and France and Iraq blocking aid from getting to the Iraqi people - but it's still America's fault.

Do I? I thought I was stating that IMO a lot of the Iraqi peoples problems are because America has involved itself so deeply in this.

I don't see anyone "laying the problem of Iraq at America's feet" I do see America wanting to tackle the problem of Iraq personally.
If the rest of the world disagrees then sure America gains a bad reputation. Is it justified? Probably not, there are plenty of countries ready to stand against America in the UN, luckily America is capable of changing its resolutions as and when another power opposes it.

Smart sanctions would have taken power, monetary mainly, away from France and Russia. We all know this, as I've said it amazed me that America ever thought this would be passed by the UN.

http://www.merip.org/pins/pin62.html

I don't propose getting rid of the sanctions, I do propose that America stop waving it's fists around, stop trying to pass sanctions that only empower America further, stop giving Saddam even more propaganda amunition to use on his people and let the UN do it's job!

I also propose that this conversation is going nowhere

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
Do I? I thought I was stating that IMO a lot of the Iraqi peoples problems are because America has involved itself so deeply in this.

I don't see anyone "laying the problem of Iraq at America's feet" I do see America wanting to tackle the problem of Iraq personally.
If the rest of the world disagrees then sure America gains a bad reputation. Is it justified? Probably not, there are plenty of countries ready to stand against America in the UN, luckily America is capable of changing its resolutions as and when another power opposes it.

yes - As if America told Iraq to invade Kuwait. The Iraqi people would be suffering with or without the US involvement.

Smart sanctions would have taken power, monetary mainly, away from France and Russia. We all know this, as I've said it amazed me that America ever thought this would be passed by the UN.

So - just because they might oppose it - means that it shouldn't be tried? I am constantly hearing the world community whining about not signing the Kyoto Treaty. It's not in our best interest to - which was my argument on the Kyoto Treaty thread. But I suppose that it is okay for Russia and France to let Iraqi citizens suffer because it would hurt them financially.

I can care less if France and Russia oppose the smart sanctions. I have always stated that countries as well as people look after their self interests first. Coming from the Russia and France standpoint - I can see why they oppose smart sanctions. It's just that the US is constantly critisized when we act inour self interests - but other countries are obviously treated with kid gloves and it's accepted.

I don't propose getting rid of the sanctions, I do propose that America stop waving it's fists around, stop trying to pass sanctions that only empower America further, stop giving Saddam even more propaganda amunition to use on his people and let the UN do it's job!

What job has the UN done? And how do smart sanction empower America more???? Saddam Hussein wanted the weapons inspectors out - he managed to get them out. The UN has rolled over completely when it comes to enforcing anything that Iraq doesn't want. Bush gave the UN an ultimatum - and it's about time. Either enforce what was supposed to be enforced - or we will take action. What purpose does the UN serve if it doesn't follow with action after it's resolutions are flagrantloy ignored? Is the UN delegation in NY just to supply carbon dioxide to the trees?

I also stand by my belief that the US should get out of the UN - shut down the UN headquarters located in New York USA and use that land that is in the SELF INTEREST of Americans.

[Coney]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2384129.stm

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
e: I always thought that spying was illegal???
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2384129.stm

Since when has spying been illegal?? What do you think the purpose of the CIA and the KGB, not to mention British Intelligence.

Also - this was wired.com going about it. Anyone that thinks when they send a PM on entmoot that others can't read it - obviously don't know too much about technology. The same goes for people sending personal e-mails or greeting cards off of websites.

The US can not spy on it's OWN citizens without a warrant however.

[Coney]

mistake pls delete

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
Sp there is no more "Freedom of speech" in the USA?

(I don't really expect u to rise to this

Sure you don't expect me to rise to it. Yes there is Freedom of Speech. What does this article have to do with freedom of speech in America? The article wasn't just about Americans sending Saddam Hussein letters and stuff - it was about how wired.com could get into Hussein's e-mail account.

But if an American citizen is suspected of doing something illegal - such as plotting to blow up a building and if the police/FBI can show resonable supicion of this and convince a judge that they should be issued a warrant - then they can wire tap and set all that up.

Wired.com's article -> Dear Saddam, How Can I Help?

[Coney]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Since when has spying been illegal??

Probably since China shot down an American spy-plane

*yawn*

[Coney]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
But if an American citizen is suspected of doing something illegal - such as plotting to blow up a building and if the police/FBI can show resonable supicion of this and convince a judge that they should be issued a warrant - then they can wire tap and set all that up.

Does suspicion justify a warrant for spying in the USA? If so does that mean the every voice in the world that is anti-USA is justifiably spied on? How on earth did N.Korea develop a nuclear program then...........or the Waco Kult occur etc etc etc.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
Probably since China shot down an American spy-plane

*yawn*

So since China shot down our spy plane - it's made it illegal? You think that the US government just stopped spying on China?

You mean like these alegations made by the Australian government about Britain -

Intelligence Services Bill 2001: Australia
The reporter repeated claims regarding ASIS operations aimed at
destabilising the Aquino Government in the Philippines. He also made claims regarding ASIS assistance to UKSIS in the Falklands conflict, in Hong Kong and in Kuwait for thebenefit of British interests and potentially to the detriment of Australian interests.....


On 23 May 1999, the Sunday program aired a cover story on DSD.33 The program aired allegations regarding the existence and operation of Echelon, a computer automated
satellite surveillance network under the 'UKUSA alliance' involving Australia, the United States, Britain, Canada and New Zealand. 34 Specifically, it was alleged that Britain had used a similar agency in Canada to undertake surveillance for domestic political purposes.

It was also alleged that Echelon intelligence had been used by the United States to obtain commercial advantages for domestic companies negotiating for contracts with Indonesia. The implication was that the network could be or had been used by the larger parties to gain information for their interests potentially to the detriment of Australian interests.

I think spying is alive and well.

[Coney]

But does that make it legal? As you previously claimed??

And was China within international law by shooting down an American plane? (for that matter was America complying to international law by flying over China's territory?) very confusing this

I cannot remember "meaning" Australia or Britain on my previous posts ....... why do you insist on bringing arguments that do not involve the USA into this disscusion

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
Does suspicion justify a warrant for spying in the USA? If so does that mean the every voice in the world that is anti-USA is justifiably spied on? How on earth did N.Korea develop a nuclear program then...........or the Waco Kult occur etc etc etc.

Well sorry - the Waco cult falls under freedom to practice your religion. There was no reasonable supicion for anything until guns that were being delivered there fell out of a UPS truck.

Concerning the North Korea - the US had supicions that the North Koreans were developing a nuclear weapons program.

Intelligence agencies aren't always perfect in getting information. If they were - then 9/11 would never have happened, Pan Am 109 (which my father was scheduled on) would not have happened, Balie would not have happened, many of the IRA bombings throughout England would never have happened, the recent attack in Russia would not have happened. of course at the same time MANY attacks are diverted and prevented everyday.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
But does that make it legal? As you previously claimed??

Spying is not ILLEGAL so it must be legal. And legal to whose eyes? If the US catched britain spying on us - we'll be pissed. Just as you would be if you caught us spying on you. But believe me - that is happening.

And was China within international law by shooting down an American plane? (for that matter was America complying to international law by flying over China's territory?) very confusing this

I don't know where international law stands.

Actually I don't see what the International law really does. The countries that don't have any care about human lives - go about avoiding international law. What is International law going to do about North Korea, or about Somalia, or about Iraq, or Saddam Hussein.

If you think that Britain or any other country doesn't do the same things - then you are blind. I don't see where shooting down our plane was necessary unless after being told to get OUT of their airspace we refused.

Remember during the cold war when the Soviet Union shot down that passenger jet for flying into their airspace. Was that justified? Was that against "international law?"

You just obviously hate the US and want to pick out all this stuff that you think the US does wrong. The problem with your spying thing - is that isn't against any laws.

[Coney]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well sorry - the Waco cult falls under freedom to practice your religion. There was no reasonable supicion for anything until guns that were being delivered there fell out of a UPS truck.

Concerning the North Korea - the US had supicions that the North Koreans were developing a nuclear weapons program.

Hmm so freedom of speech and freedom of religious opinion are two entirely different things ....so if I said "I hate the USA" I would be spied upon but if I said "I hate the way the USA is" because that is my religious belief then I would not be spied upon ...... ok that makes sense.........if I'm religious I can stand against the government without recriminations, until I buy guns and if I'm not religious then I can stand against the government until they have enough evidence to prosecute me

Concerning North Korea.............yes I can beleive they had suspicions.........yes I can beleive they did absolutely nothing to veryfie these suspicions............yes I can beleive that America pointed all it's fingers at Iraq while N.Korea held back it's ace while (alledgedly) Iraq laughed it's back off

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
Hmm so freedom of speech and freedom of religious opinion are two entirely different things ....so if I said "I hate the USA" I would be spied upon but if I said "I hate the way the USA is" because that is my religious belief then I would not be spied upon ...... ok that makes sense.........if I'm religious I can stand against the government without recriminations, until I buy guns and if I'm not religious then I can stand against the government until they have enough evidence to prosecute me

You have no understanding of US law or the constitution so their is no sense in even talking about this.

You can say you hate the US all you want - doesn't mean you're going to be spied upon. There has to be some intent to do harm to the government or to American citizens or property.

The CIA by the way - is an international intelligence agency and has no juristiction in domestic issues.

In addition - during the Sniper case - the miliatary was used to supply intelligence - but again they are not able to be directly involved in internal affairs. They could not arrest or have any other involvement other than to pass information to the local law enforcement agencies.

Concerning North Korea.............yes I can beleive they had suspicions.........yes I can beleive they did absolutely nothing to veryfie these suspicions............yes I can beleive that America pointed all it's fingers at Iraq while N.Korea held back it's ace while (alledgedly) Iraq laughed it's back off

Oh yeah - we've just been putting all our resources into Iraq for the past 10 years. We haven't done anything else other than concentrate on Iraq. You do realise that a lot more countries are involved with North Korea than just the US??? You do realise that Iraq also violated EVERY UN resolution that was agreed upon after the Gulf War - right?

[Coney]

So are you saying that spying is both legal and illegal under US law? please enlighten me.........you have stated on several threads that most Americans do not understand the law either

And when exactly did I say I hated the USA

Your unbelievalbe..........Paranoia .......... I think that I was right yesterday saying that this conversation was going nowhere

Yes I am very aware that Iraq violated a lot of of UN resolutions when that country attacked Kuwait..........isn't it a pity that America sold most of the armaments to Iraq in the hope that Saddam would use them againsnt Iran

It doesn't matter how you look at it.......America will go down as the greatest monetary success and the biggest war monger of the late 20C and the first decade of the 21C

Yes but surely the USA initially implemented the instricitons/observation laws regarding N. Korea.....and did they not say that they would enforce these restrictions????

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney


And when exactly did I say I hated the USA

Your unbelievalbe..........Paranoia .......... I think that I was right yesterday saying that this conversation was going nowhere

I didn't say you hated the US. I guess I should have stated it in PROPER english and said "One can say the hate the US all they want". I said it in reply to your ridiculous statement that if someome says they hate the US - that they'll be spied upon.

You arte right - this doesn't going anywhere. The only thing you want to prove is how evil and terrible the US is - while ignoring everyone else or the past history that has caused the problems in the Middle East. Most of which has been caused at the hands of European colonialism in the Middle East and Africa.

Yes I am very aware that Iraq violated a lot of of UN resolutions when that country attacked Kuwait..........isn't it a pity that America sold most of the armaments to Iraq in the hope that Saddam would use them againsnt Iran

Sometimes in real life you have to choice the lesser of two evils. If iran had one - it would have been much worse. We weren't supporting Iraq - we were just preventing Iran from getting an upper hand. We didn't want either Iraq or Iran to win.

It doesn't matter how you look at it.......America will go down as the greatest monetary success and the biggest war monger of the late 20C and the first decade of the 21C

Oh yeah - sure we will. I guess Germany and Europe get the war mongering status for centuries and the enslaving of races and raping of countries. America has a long way to go before we even come close to the attrocities commited at the hands of Europeans.

[Coney]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I didn't say you hated the US. I guess I should have stated it in PROPER english and said "One can say the hate the US all they want". I said it in reply to your ridiculous statement that if someome says they hate the US - that they'll be spied upon.

You arte right - this doesn't going anywhere. The only thing you want to prove is how evil and terrible the US is - while ignoring everyone else or the past history that has caused the problems in the Middle East. Most of which has been caused at the hands of European colonialism in the Middle East and Africa.

Sometimes in real life you have to choice the lesser of two evils. If iran had one - it would have been much worse. We weren't supporting Iraq - we were just preventing Iran from getting an upper hand. We didn't want either Iraq or Iran to win.

Oh yeah - sure we will. I guess Germany and Europe get the war mongering status for centuries and the enslaving of races and raping of countries. America has a long way to go before we even come close to the attrocities commited at the hands of Europeans.

nothing there even worth replying to

A hole only grows as you dig it