Theism

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Cirdan


Math is a human concept used to describe phenomena of perception.

Blackheart, I've used your post to discuss what I wanted to say about this post after hobbit's comment. so I used it as a vehicle to expand on. Plus , as usual, you made some interesting points (and a good joke... tea :hehe.

Math may be used to describe the phenomena of perception, but there are real and sound arguments that it exists beyond the realm of perception. In otherwords, it isn't a human concept, excepting the symbols we use to represnt it.

For example (goes one of the more simplistic arguments) human perception is limited to the universe. We cannot perceive that wich lies outside the universe. Yet we have evidence that "phenomena" that exist outside the universe are susceptible to the same math that affects phenomena "inside" the universe (universe being a handy term for the space/time bubble we live in).

If mathematical concepts and other phenomena can exist merely as abstract concepts outside the bounds of perception, then it makes it more likely that other abstract concepts that are not strictly mathematical can exist.

You can take a non platonist view of math, and say it's strictly a human invention, but we're going to have to argue about it. For one thing, Math comes from observation of phenomena, as a way of predicting future similar instances. If there were no correlating factors for us to discover, then the whole pile of cards would collapse.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Blackheart


Math may be used to describe the phenomena of perception, but there are real and sound arguments that it exists beyond the realm of perception. In otherwords, it isn't a human concept, excepting the symbols we use to represnt it.

I'm in agreement. I believe I should have said Math is a concept that descibes the human perception of phenomena that the universe consistently obeys formulae of quantitative equilibrium. We discover mathematics, we do not invent mathematics (except of course, theoretical math).

My symmetry point is the same, in that while we see cubes dodecahedrons, etc as having a pleasing balance, they are innate properties of materials. Some infer the "intelligent design" concept from this behavior of matter, since humans desire to build with symmentry; an anthropomorphism of a discovered constant, described by mathematics.

Yet we have evidence that "phenomena" that exist outside the universe are susceptible to the same math that affects phenomena "inside" the universe (universe being a handy term for the space/time bubble we live in).

Maybe evidence is not quite the term you want to use. Do you have a book ref. or URL to expand on what you mean. I'm not familiar with anything regarding extrauniversal properties as having been percieved.

If mathematical concepts and other phenomena can exist merely as abstract concepts outside the bounds of perception, then it makes it more likely that other abstract concepts that are not strictly mathematical can exist.

There is certainly more that has yet to be discovered, than is already known. As this relates to the existence of a single creator conscience/being, the mathematical likelihood of just one
and only one of anything is slimmer than multiples or... non-existence. But, none can be proved or disproved.

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Cirdan

Maybe evidence is not quite the term you want to use. Do you have a book ref. or URL to expand on what you mean. I'm not familiar with anything regarding extrauniversal properties as having been percieved.

Indirect evidence. Sort of the same level of evidence we have for the existence of singularities. I'll have to go fishing, and frankly to go into it would be best done on a completely different thread.

There is certainly more that has yet to be discovered, than is already known. As this relates to the existence of a single creator conscience/being, the mathematical likelihood of just one
and only one of anything is slimmer than multiples or... non-existence. But, none can be proved or disproved

Well now, no one's saying that there has to be only a single instance for a theist position to be unfalse.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Blackheart


Well now, no one's saying that there has to be only a single instance for a theist position to be unfalse. [/B]

...just the monotheist

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
yeah I meant to include Cirdan as one of the good posters, but I didn't, sorry. I did leave in the "and possibly others" though.

And you think I went off topic? I think you missed the point of our "miff" my friend.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Cirdan
Actually I thought I belonged on both lists, as well as BoP! She posted a lot of great information on radiometric dating and anthropological insite. Wayfarer, Jerseydevil, mirrille, anduin, "and possibly others" all made serious and thoughtful posts.

Thanks, Cirdan!

Originally posted by Blackheart
Indirect evidence. Sort of the same level of evidence we have for the existence of singularities. I'll have to go fishing, and frankly to go into it would be best done on a completely different thread.

Could you? I'd be much interested in reading up on this. (having an argument with someone on a similar topic. )

[Rei]

I was raised in a non-religous family and I have to admit that I myself am not very religious. I believe in a higher power and that there has to be something more than us out there, but I can't bring myself to believe all the hokey stories that come along with it. Adam and Eve, Noah's Arc that sort of thing.

I've been to many different churches and temples and other places of worship and the only one that I ever felt comfortable in was Westminister Presbateryian. (I know that's spelled wrong) The people there were okay with my lack of faith and never tried to force their religion on me, but let me come into my beleifs on my own.

I left though and I still haven't found a church to call my own, maybe one day I'll find faith...

[Rána Eressëa]

The more you study and think about religions, the more you are convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. Just stop and actually think about it for a moment. What does it say about God if he goes to the trouble of creating an existence only to shower it with misery unless they worship him? If you don't even give a thought nowadays to someone going around on the streets saying he was the son of God, why on earth would you believe someone who went around saying it 2,000 years ago? Or even better, a book that says this happened 2,000 years ago?

Albert Einstein once said: "I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls."

Christians and their God are not interested in finding truth, or having anything to do with it. Why else was man told by God not to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge? Knowledge and truth are the destroyers of belief and dogma.

And life after death - what does this really solve? Ultimate pleasure and ultimate punishment? Don't we already have enough of the two in this world alone? I believe loss of existance is ultimate pleasure enough for the sufferer, and ultimate punishment enough for the sinner.

To those of the faith here: I just believe in one fewer god than you do. And when you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.


(If it sounds grouchy - it isn't. It's just on the 'net you have the downside of not hearing people talk or seeing facial expressions. )

[Brokehorn4000]

I usually don't discuss this topic, but I need to make a few points.

First of all, how can you say that man never worshipped anything but himself when he would make sacrifices to God?

Second, God doesn't want to shower our lives with misery. It's because we rely on ourselves too much for everything so that because of what we do without Him it all goes amiss.

Third, somebody going around today saying they're the son of God would be a big fake who needs to understand what he's actually doing (blasphemy). The real Son of God has already been here and he died for an unrighteous world that turned against Him and killed Him for spreading the love of God! I have a t-shirt that says " While He was on the Cross, YOU were on His mind ".

Fourth, so what if He was here 2000 years ago? And the Bible was written long before Jesus' time. His teachings still apply to our lives.

Fifth, if Albert Einstein denied the very existence of God in his life, and didn't turn from that idea until he died, I can guarantee you that he is in someplace really hot right now.

Sixth, if Christians and God weren't interested in finding truth, why does the Bible exist and why would God bother trying having us turn back to Him? Or why would God allow incredibly smart people stay alive?

Seventh, you're talking about worldly ultimate pleasure and ultimate punishment. When you die, ultimate pleasure, as you put it, would be to live in Heaven eternally in peace. Ultimate punishment would be to live in Hell eternally in torture, to put it lightly. But the best ultimate pleasure while you live would be to rely on God and be under His protection until you die, then when you do, go to live with Him forever in Heaven. Ultimate punihment would be to successfully live without Him, then when you die, find that your success was in vain and find yourself stuck in Hell.

Eigth, when you said you believed in one fewer god than those of the faith reading your post, for me that means you don't believe in a god at all.

If you don't decide to change your ideas before you die, then I know I won't be seeing you in Heaven.

(Oh, and on the net, it's so nice not to be interrupted.)

[afro-elf]

Anduril, Bop, RE, maybe even Blackheart or Cirdan I leave this easy prey unto you

[afro-elf]

actually that was some unintentionally funny stuff.

[afro-elf]

First of all, how can you say that man never worshipped anything but himself when he would make sacrifices to God?

I think I know how you read your bible. Higher level semantics is not your stong point.


Reread it and think about it.

[Andúril]

Unless he/she wants to make some sort of valid/strong argument, instead of arguing by assertion/proselytizing/sermonizing, I really couldn't be bothered.

Although point eight was rather profound...

[Comic Book Guy]

Sixth, if Christians and God weren't interested in finding truth, why does the Bible exist...

What makes the Bible the truth?

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Brokehorn4000
First of all, how can you say that man never worshipped anything but himself when he would make sacrifices to God?

That makes absolutely no sense. As A-E has already pointed out. "Man" has never needed any outside influence to make sacrifices. There are many non-christian cultures historically, and pre-westernisation that engaged in this practice without consulting YOUR god. It's just thinly veiled murder anyway.

Second, God doesn't want to shower our lives with misery. It's because we rely on ourselves too much for everything so that because of what we do without Him it all goes amiss.

Really? I can think of a few examples in my heathen head of god causing misery.... Do you think we haven't heard this argument before? Did you bother to read this whole thread? I think you'll find we've refuted/argued with a lot of these ill-thought out points before.

Third, somebody going around today saying they're the son of God would be a big fake who needs to understand what he's actually doing (blasphemy).

What makes you so sure the original one wasn't a blasphemer? It WAS 2000 years ago after all.

Also: we are less gullible these days. It would take a lot more than a few magic tricks to win over the cynical population. And again, this has been pointed out tonnes of times in the thread... which you might actually have seen, if you'd bothered to read the whole thing.

Fourth, so what if He was here 2000 years ago? And the Bible was written long before Jesus' time. His teachings still apply to our lives.

Do they? I'm no theologist, and there are others on the 'moot who could probably point out some examples of how outmoded the bible is....

Also, the bible was actually compiled several years AFTER Jesus' death on the cross.

Fifth, if Albert Einstein denied the very existence of God in his life, and didn't turn from that idea until he died, I can guarantee you that he is in someplace really hot right now.

That's just the point. You CAN'T guarantee it. You have no concrete proof that there is in fact a heaven and hell. The only proof you provide is some book written approx 2000 years ago, by a bunch of chauvinistic men. And do I need to point out human fallacy here?

Also: Albert Einstein did a lot of good for humanity.... shame that according to your narrowminded beliefs that all his good is going to see him going straight to hell, because of his so-called lack of belief (which is wrong, because as far as I am aware, he was fairly religious.) How... unmerciful of him.

Sixth, if Christians and God weren't interested in finding truth, why does the Bible exist and why would God bother trying having us turn back to Him? Or why would God allow incredibly smart people stay alive?

There are incredibly smart people because of genetics. God has nothing to do with this.

Also: your belief is that God is not going to intervene until Judgement Day. That is why there are still smart people - because of his so-called non-intervention.

Ultimate punihment would be to successfully live without Him, then when you die, find that your success was in vain and find yourself stuck in Hell.

This has been discussed so many times before, it's not funny.

And believe me, I'm gonna take my chances in hell. Ultimate pleasure sounds... boring. I can think of much more fun activities!

Eigth, when you said you believed in one fewer god than those of the faith reading your post, for me that means you don't believe in a god at all.

Well... duh!

If you don't decide to change your ideas before you die, then I know I won't be seeing you in Heaven.

Who says I want to see you?

(Oh, and on the net, it's so nice not to be interrupted.)

No, but now we have a record of all your weak arguments. Now we can all point and laugh.

[Cirdan]

...and so boys and girls, that is why you never just jump into a sword fight armed with a butter knife.

oh, yeah, on the third....

KNEES!

...and pants, of course.

easy prey... :hehe:

good one A-E!

[Entlover]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rána Eressëa Christians and their God are not interested in finding truth, or having anything to do with it.
__________________________________________________ _

Funny, it was because Christ struck me as being totally truthful that I first became a Christian. I know, obviously not everyone feels that way.
_________________________________________________-

I believe loss of existance is ultimate pleasure enough for the sufferer, and ultimate punishment enough for the sinner.


How is loss of existence pleasurable? It seems like the ultimate horror to me, and always has. Most sane people enjoy existence.


This thread seems out of place in the Entmoot -- but don't let me stop you. But it could go on forever . . .obviously nobody's going to change his mind. Hey, we've got six months to kill.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Entlover
How is loss of existence pleasurable? It seems like the ultimate horror to me, and always has. Most sane people enjoy existence.

I don't know. Most elderly or terminally ill people seem happy enough to die. Or maybe they're insane?

Hey, we've got six months to kill.

What do you mean? Judgement day? Oh please.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by BeardofPants


What do you mean? Judgement day? Oh please.

I was hoping it meant until TT day... It would be a shame for the world to end before the trilogy movies were complete.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Cirdan


I was hoping it meant until TT day... It would be a shame for the world to end before the trilogy movies were complete.

Well, I don't know if I'd feel lucky or sad then!