11-09-2002, 04:07 PM | #441 | ||
the Shrike
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And that is why you are wrong about there being no slightly evolving chain. There are many slight differrences between heidelbergensis and the neandertal. So much so, that it is now generally a given that they were two separate species, as opposed to what they previously thought - that heidelbergensis was Neander. I'm not even gonna get into the timeframe here, but needless to say, a long period of time stretched between Heidelbergensis and Neander (who were developing before sapiens expanded out) and the expansion of Sapiens. On top of all this, there is a convergence between Erectus, Sapiens, and Heidelbergensis, of several thousands of years. Your faster evolution theory is simply not possible. Quote:
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11-09-2002, 04:11 PM | #442 | |||||
the Shrike
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Leif: "However, two of the primary reasons that I am advocating it is because the possibility has lately been coming to scientific thought, as more knowledge is procured, and secondly, because the Bible also tends to advocate that more than a longer evolution." The possibility that a younger earth, or a faster rate of evolution in the sense that you are talking about has NOT come into the scientific community. As I said earlier, if there is going to be a rethink on dating, it will most likely be because the dates are OLDER than previously thought. Also, as I also mentioned earlier, the rate of evolutionary change is NOT constant, and it is NOT linear. So, in a certain sense you are right - there are *some* aspects of evolution that can be considered "fast", but not in the sense that you are implying. Leif: "But I tend to believe that Adam was the first man, and the faster evolution certainly implies that this could easily happen." If Adam was the first man, then where would we place him in the record? Ramapithecus? Creationists think that he was an orangutan! Faster evolution implies nothing of the sort. Adam would have to have been a brachiating, barrel chested, vegetarian. Leif: "How long the animals had been around before him, I'm not sure, but in the Bible it says that sin and death were brought to the world when Adam succumbed to temptation, and this would imply that none of the animals had died yet." From Ramapithecus, right up through all the australopithecines, there is evidence that their diets were primarily of the floral variety. So, we're looking from 6 million years ago, right up until approximately 500,000 years ago. That is a long time frame for 'Adam' to have been a vegetarian, brachiating, barrel chested wonder. We can analyse their diets using strontium-radium methods, which compare the ratios of fauna versus flora in early hominid diet. The rate of strontium in a mammal that eats grass for instance, is vastly different from that of a carnivore, which eats the mammal who eats the grass, and gets the strontium indirectly. We can also look at the morphology of australopithecines, ie their mandible, teeth, and zygomatic processesp; this tells us, due to the extreme robusticity, that they were eating hard grains, and fruit, NOT meat. Leif: "Here you'll probably start laughing, but that is one of the reasons why I am attempting to cast doubt on the dating method for a millions of years evolution." And I'll say it again, while the margin of error for dating methods can not be relied on for precision (note, precision, NOT accuracy. The accuracy of dating methods is not in doubt), geomagnetic reversals in the stratification of the geological and fossil record BOTH indicate a very very old earth. Your possibility of a faster evolution is improbable. Quote:
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 11-09-2002 at 04:54 PM. |
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11-09-2002, 04:30 PM | #443 | |||||||||
the Shrike
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Can you justify this statement please. Quote:
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Regarding continental drift, again, we can look towards the study of stratigraphy. Quote:
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Again: accuracy good, precision not so good. Please, be careful on your terminology. Your ignorance is showing. Quote:
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11-09-2002, 04:47 PM | #444 | |||||
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As for your opinions about the bible's relevance to the history of the earth, I am truely sorry for you that you will choose to ignore what you believe god created. If you want to be able to engage in these discussions you should at least allow yourself to obtain a proper understanding of the prevailing science before you support unproven theories because you have the impression that your religion would suffer otherwise.
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11-09-2002, 05:04 PM | #445 | |
Elf Lord
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For what must be the tenth time, I'm not arguing for a younger Earth, either. The things you stated about Adam are based upon the slow evolution, if it's faster, these don't hold. I have a question for you, BeardofPants. Theoretically, if the break-up of the continents came shortly after the flood, would this effect the universal mud layer you say everything should have? I asked you questions before about the universal mud layer, and they weren't answered. In any case, I'm not going to get wrapped up in an argument for an early break-up of the continents, a flood, and a faster evolution. All I wanted to do is point out that since science has error in it and there are things out there and probably even general laws that aren't yet observed, it can't be used as a basis for going against these other ideas. I ask again the same question that I asked in an earlier post, and which went unanswered. Why should what is written in the Bible be forced to conform to every scientific theory that is currently held? Since science changes as we learn new things and discard old ideas, it is ridiculous that Christianity, which holds to a firm and unyielding truth, to have to evolve with science. |
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11-09-2002, 05:28 PM | #446 |
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Well I’m not gonna read all the posts to this point, but as a Creationist I’ll take the point of view against Evolution as science.
So to make my entry into this topic here’s one reason against evolution, (which should be easy to combat) 1 - Natural Selection disproves Evolution, because it chooses against mutations so no change will stay; E.G. an ape can’t turn into man even over time because no mutation can be passed on. Simple you say? Well it had to start somewhere.
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11-09-2002, 05:53 PM | #447 | |
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Next...
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11-09-2002, 06:04 PM | #448 | ||
the Shrike
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Well over 90% of mutations are neutral. And what Cirdan said: not all a deadly, and not all prevent reproduction. Obviously. Natural selection is about selecting for the best possible fitness. If a mutation helps an organism fit into its niche better, it will be selected for. Men do not come from apes. We share a common ancestor. Next. (Will it be the second law of thermodynamics? )
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11-09-2002, 06:34 PM | #449 | |||
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11-09-2002, 06:37 PM | #450 | |
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11-09-2002, 06:49 PM | #451 | |||
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About the flood being world wide, I don’t think water covered the whole earth nor that every-living thing outside of Ark died, but that all human beings outside of the Ark died and most animals if not all. However it’s okay to use the word world wide with the flood because the flood caused the ice age and that was world wide. (edit - changed creator to Creator)
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11-09-2002, 07:08 PM | #452 | |||
the Shrike
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You're also forgetting to take sexual selection into consideration. Quote:
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There have been several glacial maximums, btw. How does a massive flooding lead to a glacial maximum exactly? Glacial maximums are caused by the Earths position to the sun, not some heavy rain.
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11-09-2002, 07:09 PM | #453 | ||||
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-09-2002, 07:12 PM | #454 |
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I see some very good reasons in this thread, why evolution should be taught in school. I'm seeing quite a few posts by people making big cases against it when they do not fully understand it! It is not simply "man came from apes" . I was shocked when I home schooled, and realized many of the parents were not teaching evolution. The children were growing up ignorant of this important, but somewhat complicated theory. It was enough to send us back to public school, despite some of the positive aspects of home schooling. (HS is mighty lonely if you don't have other home school families to get together with. )
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11-09-2002, 07:23 PM | #455 | |
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Home schooling is difficult because you lose the socialization without numbers. I found what you did as well; that hs was just a way to supress thought that wasn't from the bible.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-09-2002, 07:35 PM | #456 |
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This is one way evolution works...
Say there was a lot of competition for food in the early oceans with most fish swimming in the middle depths - but nothing really occupying the lower depths. Some fish start to swim down to the ocean floor and pick up the scraps. After some time they really don't need their fins anymore - and the fish that are born with flat fins that would have been considered deformities and would have died in the upper depths, survive better on the floor of the ocean. Through successive generations these deformaties become more pronounced because having flat fins on the ocean floor allow them to walk which is better for life down there - but now they can no longer swim. This new flat finned fish eventually migrates to the shore and starts to move up through the low surf. Some of them walk out of the water - but they can't survive - because they still have gills. Some of these fish can develop a deformity that allows them to breath for a short time on land - through successive generations this "deformatity" gets passed on to it's offspring and becomes a standard part of the fish. These new fish evetually are able to crawl out of the water and live. You can see this fish today called a lung fish. There is another fish that was very scary this summer in Maryland called the Northern Snakehead - ABCNews - They're Here... Two Unusual Fish Invade U.S. Waters. (I had several Lion Fish - they're a really cool fish, I especially like the Fu Man Chu Lion Fish.)
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11-09-2002, 07:51 PM | #457 | |||||||||
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11-09-2002, 08:00 PM | #458 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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I like a nice dark rye, but a nice crusty white bred is good too.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-09-2002, 08:38 PM | #459 | ||||
the Shrike
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Would you care to explain it to us? Yeah, I thought not. Quote:
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Refinement? Hmm... Natural selection acts on an organism, and the organism responds by adapting. Natural selection is the process by which the organism adapts. The refinement comes into play with SEXUAL selection. Light coloured skin was a result of hominids moving up into the colder regions of the north (Europe), and adapting so that their skin could take in more vitamin E. There is evidence that their earlier counterparts were dying of rickets (esp. the old and the very young), cos their darker skin wasn't used to the smaller degree of vitamin E. Those who didn't produce children ridden with rickets would have made more desirable mates. Sexual selection.
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11-09-2002, 08:52 PM | #460 | |
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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