04-13-2006, 03:16 PM | #441 |
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The opening section of the Gospel of Luke tells why Luke wrote his gospel.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-13-2006, 03:19 PM | #442 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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I thought he did it 'cause three of the other guys beat him to it.
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04-13-2006, 03:29 PM | #443 | |
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And it's not just that it was a certain number of years after the events it records--this is a few generations later. You can take GJ very seriously for what it is and only is...a gnostic document. |
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04-13-2006, 07:59 PM | #444 | ||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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b) Done.
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04-13-2006, 08:17 PM | #445 | ||
Elf Lord
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Insidious Rex, I'm responding to your post with several evidences I hope you'll consider, but I must note that you haven't responded to any of the points, arguments or evidences I have thus far presented in my posts. You're also just making suggestions.
Here's a relevant point I'm curious how you'll respond to. A question of logic. The Gospel of Judas is written by an unknown author, and note that Wikipedia says it is almost certainly not Judas. If it was not Judas, who would have had access to those private conversations? The only possible ones are the disciples, but what did they say about Judas??? Moving on, the Gospel of Judas is more fantastical in its account than the cannonical scripture. It flies in the face of those who knew Judas, and claims to be a "secret account" . You can believe in the secret account, but you must deny all evidence and reason to do so, and base yourself fully on supposition and guesswork. Quote:
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Let's look at a teaching NOT found in any of the Gospels: Circumcision is no longer necessary. At the time the Gospels was written there was a great internal struggle in the church over circumcision. The Early Church Fathers argued that circumcision was no longer necessary now that people were saved by faith rather than the law. Many Jewish Christians objected and argued that circumcision was completely necessary. If the Gospel writers were willing to tamper with their story a bit to make things easier for the Early Church, in all probability they would have put a teaching in Jesus' mouth about circumcision. Instead, there is absolute silence from Jesus on the matter. Let's look at another point from the Gospels. They present the disciples as little better than morons, almost never understanding what Jesus is telling them (as is only logical- they were untrained laymen and he was presenting radical new teachings). These were the leaders of the church at the time the gospels were written, and two of these Gospels were written by these disciples! Their account is certainly humble. My point again is that if you're willing to tamper with your account and present things in a way that isn't completely truth, you won't leave your the disciples, the leaders of the Early Church, looking like morons. They do. Another evidence from scripture: The first witnesses of the resurrection of Jesus were women. In Jewish culture, women's testimony was considered to be worthless. If the gospel writers were willing to alter their account to make it easier to accept, they would have changed this and made Peter or John the first witnesses.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-13-2006 at 08:21 PM. |
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04-13-2006, 09:06 PM | #446 | |
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You honestly think all those disciples gave up their lives for inconsistent and confusing messages?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-13-2006 at 09:24 PM. |
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04-13-2006, 09:27 PM | #447 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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By "common people", I meant the general populace. I don't think they're stupid by any means - in fact, I imagine many of them are a good deal smarter than many "educated" people! Not everyone can afford an education, or has the opportunity for an education, so IMO there are many intelligent people who are uneducated. Also, there are different types of intelligence - I just read an amusing account today of some Cal Tech students who were rescued on the top of a mountain (they were stuck up there, wearing tutus, for a hazing stunt). The guy in charge of the rescue commented that intelligence and common sense don't necessarily go together. I think common sense is an important type of intelligence, and I imagine that many "uneducated" people get some good laughs out of the ineptness of some "educated" people. Also, I certainly hope you're not proud about being intelligent (which I think you are (intelligent), and which I imagine you think you are, too) - it's certainly not in any list of things that God praises that I know of, and you certainly did nothing in your mother's womb to merit the intelligence you have. Intelligence is rather low on the list of things that God really likes - which makes sense, because we have nothing to do with how much intelligence we have, anyway. Wisdom, of course, is a different thing. The verse that intelligent people need to keep soberly in mind is the one that goes, "To whom much is given, much is required." I await with interest to see what God, in His love, will do with your opinions!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-14-2006 at 01:00 AM. |
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04-13-2006, 09:56 PM | #448 | |
Elf Lord
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Here's a scripture relevant to the discussion. Even Peter found Paul's theology complex!
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-15-2006, 10:17 AM | #449 |
Spaceman Spiff
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I'm sorry, I know I should've posted something in responce to what's going on, but I couldn't help it.
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04-15-2006, 11:24 PM | #450 | ||
"The Bomb"
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Regarding the argument over the Judas Gospel, all I have to say is that it's not unique. There have been councils for centuries that exist just to debate the validity of religious documents like that one and decide whether or not they should be accepted as canon. There are only four or five specific requirements that each document in question must meet in order to get the Church's approval, and they include: 1- cannot contradict any biblical or widely accepted teaching; 2- a credible source/author.
Before the time of documentaries, a scroll was discovered that told of Jesus as a little boy. There was a discussion as to whether or not this should be admitted as a fifth gospel, but they decided no, because it made Jesus seem like a brat. He might have been one, but that would have gone totally against the idea, already being taught, that he never sinned. It would have been contradictory, confusing to both the uneducated and the educated, and anti-Christians would never let the Church live it down. They're pretty open about the way they determine a document's "validity" only by comparing its content to other, more famous, documents; there's no secret or conspiracy about it. Most often they'll even say it's OK to believe in a document that they don't want to add into the bible. I didn't see the show, though, and I admit I've actually been avoiding the articles because it seems like too much hype to me too. Quote:
I think of the common populace as a bunch of stupid people too though. (Thanks for saying it first, IR. ) But when I keep in mind how psychological baggage can really slow a person down, I really can't hold it against them individually, so I give them the benefit of the doubt that they're worthy of my respect. It might be a mean predisposition, but it isn't harmful anyway. Quote:
To summarize Genesis, for example: God created everything, including mankind, who he made in his image, and it's all good. When people debate over how many days he actually took , they're distracting attention from the meaning! They also say that Jesus is fully human and fully divine: 200%. Nuh-uh! They mean that he's a transcendental figure, and not some sort of hybrid. Jesus himself says "I am the temple" and "you'll eat my body and drink my blood." Catholics acknowledge that the wine and host is not actually Jesus, physically, literally, because that's silly--it doesn't taste, smell, or look like it, and a person just knows--but it is "in essence." To claim that it is "in essence" makes much, much more sense. There's a lot in the bible that only makes sense if looked at figuratively, and I don't understand why many people nowadays think 'figurative' equates to 'damned liberal.' The message is actually better taken from a figurative standpoint sometimes, IMO. Of course, they still teach that he's real and that his word should be considered and obeyed, and that such dogma is a different, more important truth. It's just that anything paradoxical, like the trinity, can be explained away by saying "not really, but..." without subtracting from the validity or the goodness or whatever it is you value in the teaching. Plus, that way, even the cynics can understand and have faith in it as sincerely as the most wooden Christian fundamentalist on Earth! It allows more people to believe in the religion; it doesn't misguide them with skewed information. I think it's more so the fundamentalists that mislead people, into thinking of Christianity in its entirety as an organization that prohibits normal human questioning and personal opinion. It's not a flexible system of beliefs, but it's not complete unless that allegorical interpretation is allowed. *reminisces* I once tried to convince Emplynx of this at his old board, Took Talk. Whoa. EDIT: *indents 24-line paragraph* Oops. If you've gotten to this point in my post I congratulate you, and apologize for making it so long in the first place. Some of it was a combo of me blowing off steam and pre-emptively addressing objections.
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Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity? Last edited by Bombadillo : 04-16-2006 at 12:06 AM. |
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04-17-2006, 01:04 AM | #451 | |||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-17-2006 at 01:06 AM. |
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04-17-2006, 02:11 PM | #452 | |||||||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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04-17-2006, 02:13 PM | #453 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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04-17-2006, 06:45 PM | #454 | ||||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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*checks the thread title* Okay, good, this next comment is kosher. You're quite right that I did nothing to merit what (I think limited) intelligence I have. It is absolutely and wholly true that I merit absolutely nothing which is good; all good things which come to me come by the grace of God. 'You have made him little less than a god', not that he is so by nature. I have not done a single good thing in my life of my own volition. Even my belief in God is a gift directly from Him; all I do is receive and cooperate with His grace. I actually think that Scriptural wisdom is more or less the same as intelligence as we understand it today. But that's a different question. [/QUOTE] Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-19-2006, 03:18 AM | #455 | |||
Elf Lord
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Also, this disciple was unwilling to speak up for those beliefs he agreed with, but he was willing to die for beliefs he DIDN'T completely agree with. Gnosticism and Christianity have some pretty strong differences. So why was this disciple unwilling to even speak up for what he did agree with, but willing to die for what he disagreed with? It's pretty strange. Quote:
I'll probably respond to the rest of your post later, and Bombadillo's. I'm just too tired right now . But thanks for your responses!
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-20-2006, 03:08 PM | #456 |
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Maybe I'm not so surprised...
I thought about this quite a bit:
I'm no longer surprised that Dan Brown hit it big with the Da Vinci Code. The time was ripe for something like this. In an age that looks for thrills and conspiracies around every corner, The Da Vinci Code is just one in a big line of thrill after thrill, that only satisfy you to the point that you want...more thrill. And the "recent discovery" of the Gospel of Judas (in reality, the old church fathers knew about it. It's not new to history, only to this century), seem to make a statement that we can all take too seriously: that perhaps christianity is something way different than what we think. And in a way, they're right. Most of us are used to either: Evangelical Protestants, or the Catholic Church in its present form. Almost NOBODY today actually sits down to read what church scholars read, or even what Dan Brown read as "research". If you think the Gospel of Judas may be Christianity's nightmare: look again. This "Gospel" was not written by someone who "knew the truth about Jesus and Judas". It is a Gnostic Gospel. The Gnostics beleived that truth is entrusted to only a select few (the moderns are the Jehovah's Witness). So if in your opinion you think Christianity is weird, and you look to this document as a relief, you're merely exchanging something weird for something weirder. One of the National Geographic reps said something quite ignorant about the whole thing: the gospel showed that early christianity had "diverse" sects. And he was right, but this is nothing new! You could find out the same thing if only you bothered to look into these things yourself! The arguments about Christ's divinity are nothing new to this world, they were fought about way before your grandma said hi. Of course SOMEONE is bound to pounce on the oppurtunity of making this into a conspiracy if he knows what the general public doesn't know...hence the thing we call Da Vinci. (forget about the REAL Da Vinci, he didnt exist). This is only a prelude people, I'll be back.
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04-20-2006, 08:29 PM | #457 |
Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation
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Agreed. There's always people looking for something behind everything, and they're not satisfied with the fact that the Church has amazingly survived 2,000 years. They have to convince themselves that it's done so through subterfuge, etc...
The public is always going to be looking for someone to blame, and the Church is always the first thing to go. It won't end there. I think the reason that conspiracy theories are so popular is that people enjoy the prospect of having "secret knowledge" about political and religious organizations. Ironic...that's also why so many people latched onto Gnosticism. And now another Gnostic "gospel" appears. No wonder they're so eager.
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Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan) |
04-21-2006, 11:56 AM | #458 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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This is better suited for an existing topic thread we have:
Theological Opinions , PART II moving
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Last edited by Spock : 04-22-2006 at 11:33 AM. |
04-21-2006, 08:43 PM | #459 |
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Contradicting a Religion?
Do you think it's right to beleive in two things simultaneously that others are constantly at odds about?
This question has been bothering me for some time. Therefore, I have decided to cross the line I have not yet dared to cross (nor do I plan to ever again), and that is the line of religion versus science. Though I am aware of several threads that include this, such as the Should We Teach Evoloution thread among others, but I don't beleive there is an all encompassing one that will leave me with a satisfying answer. To start, I must lay down the causes of this conflict within me. As many of you may know, I am a firm beleiver in science. I don't say it like it is, I say it as though it is. But, on the side, though I am rarely public about it, I am also a firm beleiver in God. Now, religion and science actually don't have a conflict until you get into the very realms in which I beleive. There, you run into two ideas, two theories, that ignites the flame between scientists and Christians. These are the Big Bang theory and the theory of evoloution. My conflict is this. Though beleiving fully in biblical teachings, I can't help but to consider them incomplete. They fail to give a good answer to why things are the way they are, they just tell how things should be, and how they might have been. The largest problem I face is one that has troubled many for centuries. How was the universe created? I beleive, as many physicists, cosmologists, and others hint towards but rarely openly proclaim, that God created the universe through the Big Bang. This is where the opposite problem takes hold. The universe is so grand, so vast, so beautiful and elegant that how could anyone not beleive that there is some sort of intelligent design. Where did the universe come from? How could time not exist until the Big Bang? The second question is the one that causes the biggest clamour and conflict. If the book of Genesis says that God created man directly in a day, how come all says otherwise. Conversely, why did evoloution favor bipeds, and why should there be humans at all? Why did life start out here in the first place, and furthermore, how? This is where it gets me the most. Though beleiving in biblical teachings, I have to contradict that statement by denying the book of Genesis. What can I do? Two things I thoroughly beleive in are mortal enemies. The overall problem is in the people I interact with. While some would be glad to hear that I favor science, and shake their heads if I didn't, others, such as my mom, would be furious if the former was the case. How can I keep everyone happy? I certainly don't want God mad at me, but everything in the first book of the Bible is in direct conflict with observation, and over all of that, the explanation laid down therein is inexplicably dull. This leads me to wonder, why the conflict? Where in human history did we go wrong, or are we just trying to see this from a firmly divided viewpoint without accepting any other soloution? The universe is not black and white. I conclude this statement with a quote from a famous physicist who's name I need not mention. The reason for my putting it is the meaning underlying those words. I will explain soon. "Subtle is the Lord, but malicious, he is not."
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04-21-2006, 09:27 PM | #460 | ||
Spaceman Spiff
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I'm sure someone is going to come along and tel you this belongs in the Theologic Opinion thread, but I'll go ahead and answer you here.
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I'm not going to say to much because like I said, I have a feeling they are going to tell you to move this. Sorry.
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