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#441 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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See, my reading of the New Testament is considerably different from yours. I think the New Testament is God's acknowledgment that the system of laws in the Old Testament, intended as a really specific guide to daily life towards God, had uneven success. So we're on to plan B. Plan B is, Jesus sacrifices himself to save everyone, and we streamline the guidelines. The new guidelines are in Mark 12:28-34. I don't have any difficulty reading older versions, and routinely use several Bibles in the house, in an effort to understand how people of all times and faiths saw certain points.
People who translate the Bible generally have agendas. As long as I'm compensating for that, anyway, I prefer language that's at least beautiful. ![]()
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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#442 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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![]() Rats, the kids have been bugging me for the computer for some time now - gtg!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 05-29-2007 at 06:04 PM. |
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#443 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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I'll claim what seems reasonable to me.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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#444 | |
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Narnia
Posts: 1,656
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![]() Sorry to jump in here so suddently, but I couldn't not respond to your comment about the Law. Rian's essentially right here (on the Christian standpoint. I'm not sure what Count would have to say ![]() First, there are three kinds of law: ceremonial, civil, and moral. Now the purpose of the moral law, as instituted beginning with Moses and the Sinai covenant, was (1) pedagogical (it shows us how we cannot perfectly keep the law, and therefore are in need of redemption) and also (2) political (set up moral boundaries) and (3) something I'm forgetting at the moment! The law did exactly what it was intended for in the OT. Contrary to common belief, people in the OT and NT (essentially those before Christ and those after), were all saved by grace . No one was ever saved by the Law itself. What about the Law now? As Christ was the final atoning sacrifice, the ceremonial law (dealt with things like how to sacrifice, which is now unnecessary) is ended. As God's people are no longer confined to his original chosen ancient Israel, the civil laws (dealt with things like the legal system) also no longer apply (In a sense the ceremonial laws fall here, too). Finally, the moral laws are universal and timeless. Jesus was never merely a "Plan B." He was the NT fulfillment of the covenant begun in the OT, and a fulfillment that was planned probably since forever-ago, but most certainly from the Fall. Or that's what the Bible seems to indicate.
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. Last edited by Mercutio : 05-29-2007 at 07:38 PM. |
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#445 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
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As Mercutio guessed, from a Jewish standpoint, I raaaaaather disagree. But I believe that's generally accepted Christian doctrine there.
From a Jewish standpoint, the Law does not fail because we violate it any more than a US statute fails by being violated. As a Reform Jew, generally we take most of the more stringent laws (I'll be blunt here) and take them more as guidelines. For example, we no longer stone people. We do not fence off menstruating women. Etc. But we take the law, in general, and adapted to a modern society, as God's plan, something that is there even if we violate it, and still important even so.
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. Last edited by Count Comfect : 05-29-2007 at 07:55 PM. |
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#446 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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![]() And I'll claim that you have an agenda, just like those dratted Bible translators! ![]()
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#447 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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I agree with the vast majority of your post, Mertucio. Maybe with all of it- I'm not entirely sure what a certain part of your post is saying. There's just one bit of your post that I'd like to question some.
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The symbolic parts of the law that were fulfilled in Christ are behind us. When we have the reality, the image is cast aside. The moral and civil laws also were fulfilled in Christ, for if we have Christ inside us, we behave in a moral way and become perfected slowly over time, and since we behave in a moral way, we also fulfill in our actions the just requirements of the civil law. So all parts of the law are fulfilled in the believer in Christ. Part of the reason for the law being established for Israel was so that the people would know what was right and behave in a good way before God. Part of the reason the law was given was so that people would do what was just. Remember King David's praise of the law and meditation on it, in Psalms ![]() As Christians, the requirements of all parts of the law are all fulfilled in us, because Christ is in us. But on a social level, not everyone does God's will. So the aspects of God's law to Israel that are supposed to keep society orderly and doing what is right, and which punish destructive wrongdoing, should be still fully in place. The symbolic law is shed because the reality exists, but the Israeli civil law that prevents injustice and demands that right be done should still exist in society. Though as Jesus pointed out through his mercy toward the woman condemned for adultery, it has to be blended with mercy. That's also why Martin Luther King Jr. opposed segregation in the civil law. It's because the civil law should be in accord with God's Law. And God demonstrated his justice in the Law of Moses. So I think that the non-symbolic aspects of the civil law that God revealed, the parts that deal with justice for society, should remain in place, though as Christ demonstrated, they should be blended with mercy. So I don't see the civil law as wholly discarded. I think we're overall, and very possibly even completely, in agreement, though ![]() ![]() Though if we aren't, that's fine too. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#448 |
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Narnia
Posts: 1,656
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I was about to go to sleep when I saw you were responding...so I promise to catch up soon (tomorrow, probably).
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
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#449 | ||||
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Narnia
Posts: 1,656
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On a side note (I can't help myself!) for those following this, we do have two particular new covenant replacements for old ceremonial laws (I guess they were ceremonial?). In any event, baptism replaces circumcision and the Eucharist replaces Passover.
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I just found this online, and it seems to sum up some of our thoughts. It's from Tenth Presbyterian in Philadelphia, a very thoroughly orthodox church if I ever knew one. A reformed theology, naturally. You might differ on their remarks about the civil law. Quote:
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. Last edited by Mercutio : 05-30-2007 at 12:22 AM. |
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#450 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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My views about Civil Law and God's Law
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![]() I think that if God in the Old Testament says stone an adulteress, then stoning an adulteress is just. And every nation should apply justice in its laws. So punishing an adulteress under law is still just now, just as it was then, because our God is not a changing God. And maintaining purity in modern nations is as important as it was in Israel. Ancient Israel was supposed to be a light to the nations, and part of that was through its laws and justice, in addition to its obedience to and relationship with the true God. Jesus did not oppose the law or attempt to abolish it. He specifically said he didn't intend to abolish it. When the adulteress was brought forward, however, he showed mercy. This shows that Old Testament civil law, while just, should combined with mercy. That's what the Puritans did in North America. They established the Old Testament law that if a son dishonors his father or mother, he can be put to death. However, even though that law was in place (they thought it just and God unchanging), they never used it. Occasionally, on very, very rare occasions, when a child (and I think he or she had to be over the age of sixteen) was physically or verbally extremely abusive to his or her parents, they would bring the child to court and the court might or might not authorize a lesser punishment, depending on whether or not they believed the child's actions or words were strongly provoked. But the Old Testament law that they put in place was never used, even though it was there in their law, because they also followed Christ's teaching of mercy. Quote:
This view about civil law largely came on the scene after the Christian era ended. It only has really caught on in very recent times, in the post-Christian era, and in most of Christianity's past, it was not believed at all. I think that much of the reason for our believing it now is that we love our country and have grown up accepting our country's founding principles. The separation of Old Testament law from government law really mainly began in the 18th century, when freedom of religion began to take off in Europe and America. Much of the separation of Old Testament law and government that exists now has its root in one of the basic laws of our country. We love our country and have grown up with laws such as freedom of religion and separation of church and state, and we have been deceived by modern culture into thinking that those laws have benefitted our civilization. Because we accept those laws, we accept their natural implications, which are separation of God's Law from the law of the land. For the law of the land is made by the people, for the people, so if the people differ religiously from God's people, we must accept their religious differences and allow them to engage in what we see as being immoral practices, because their freedom to engage in those practices stems from their freedom of religion. Thus morality and law must become separate because religion and law have become separate. And when we hold to freedom of religion, because religion creates morality and immorality, we must gradually come to accept more and more separation of morality and state. That's why we hear so many people nowadays who talk about it being wrong to "legislate morality." That leaves us with immoral laws. And now, it has reached the point where we see the Law of God as completely failing to apply when it comes to the law of government. The Law of the People should not be the Law of God. But why? It makes far more sense that if any law should govern a state, it should be God's Law, for God is just, unlike us humans, and he knows what is right, unlike us humans. So when he shows us how to run a state, it makes the most sense that we do as he suggests. Partly because they followed the Biblical model of civil law in setting up their governments, Christianity dominated Europe for over a thousand years, and evil ideologies such as those that flourish and spread everywhere in modern times, along with a great variety of forms of immorality, did not take root. There were moral problems back then too, of course, and I think that God punished them for those faults just as he did ancient Israel. They thought they were being justly punished also, when they suffered disasters. But many of the social problems back then were nowhere near on the level that they exist today. And many severe sins of modern times were nowhere near as bad, such as relationship break-up, sexual promiscuity, homosexuality, pornography, the murder of children (which is now a genocide of abortions), and idolatry. Those sins have all been pursued and justified in the name of freedom of religion and separation of church and state. If church and state are separate, then morality and state are separate. If morality and state are separate, then immorality is the natural result. And that is what we have seen, a steep moral decline within the years during and since the Enlightenment. Religion is the heartbeat the spurs people's actions. Every person is religious- it's just a question of whether they worship God or an idol. If a person worships an idol, that will naturally lead to immorality. And if we allow immorality, the natural result will be damage to that person and to society. God's Law prevented immorality and declared the nature of justice. When Christians established that law in their society, as well as following the Spirit who enabled them to better fulfill the requirements of the Law (because Christ fulfills the Law), their civilizations flourished for a thousand years. When the people separated church and state and offered freedom of religion, societies disintegrated throughout the West and immorality flourished.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 05-30-2007 at 01:55 AM. |
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#451 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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#452 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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What is your evidence for this assertion? |
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#453 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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#454 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#455 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#456 | |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
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#457 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Gaffer, the issues you are referring to are mostly matters of economics and technology, so they don't really comment on the effectiveness of the laws I was referring to. By rescinding those laws, we've given ourselves social problems that didn't exist in the Medieval Ages, even though technology has somewhat rolled back problems that existed then.
But I think there are some important points you're overlooking. Quote:
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I also believe famine and plague are going to make a horrible and very widespread come-back in the West (we both know they're very, very prevalent in places outside of the West, so I won't go there). Diseases keep mutating nowadays into worse varieties (the avian flu virus is a current threat), and our bodies no longer have immunities to infectious diseases that are preserved by terrorists for use in biological and chemical weapons. I personally am convinced that modern Western society will be completely and savagely ruined. The people of the Medieval Ages tended to see their wars, famines and plagues as judgments from God for sin. I would also expect to see those in that era, seeing as Revelation predicts that Christ's rule would be with an "iron scepter." I expect that a fair portion of the time, folks in the Medieval Ages who saw their social woes in this way were right, and I see many of the massive modern devastations the same way. Quote:
But in modern times, leaving aside all the children who still die in or outside the womb from natural causes or diseases (and of these, there have been three in my family alone), there have been 1 billion abortions worldwide since about 1980, 1/7 of the world's population, and 40 million of those deaths were in the US alone. Quote:
Huh. I'll have to think about this one more. You may be right, but then, maybe being closer to heaven wasn't so bad a thing. And you know how an aging population is bogging down Japan's economy. And the same is happening here and in China. Also, people in the Medieval Ages led very active, busy lives, often starting work before dawn and going into the night. So even if they lived brief lives, going to heaven sooner, their lives might have been just as full as ours. And different in levels of appreciation, a point I'll get to soon. Quote:
Furthermore, I'd like to mention that poverty is relative. You might be living in poverty by Western standards and be doing a ton better than a poor person in Africa. Or you might be a poor person in Africa and yet be doing far better than did the poor of generations that came before, and so feel glad. Expectations are important in this. Consider, for instance, how Western society in the Medieval Ages offered people serfdom. That was an improvement on the slavery offered by the Roman Empire. It's not like someone from modern times is popping down into the Medieval lifestyle. For that person, it might be unbearably hard. But for them, they were used to it and had smaller expectations, and they would have only seen the past, like we do. We can't see into the future and say, "oh, in the next few centuries they'll have all those improvements! Oh, how horrible our condition is!" If you've come down in economic conditions, you feel the loss. If you can't see what the altnerative is, though, you don't feel your "hardship." And the lot of folk in the Medieval Ages was actually an improvement on the lot of past generations. So for them, what they would have experienced (from an economic standpoint) might not only have been natural, but actually pretty good. Heck, a number of the super-rich might look on us rather "middle class" folks as living in unbearable conditions. In Mexico, I saw children playing with sticks, having no toys or electronic gadgets, and nothing else to play with ever, and yet they were having a blast. They were honestly having a rolicking good time, and many of our youth group members had a grand time playing with them too, for the great pleasure of those children was infectious. Many of folks nowadays who have all the economical blessings and modern technology are completely self-absorbed and do not appreciate or fully enjoy anything they have. I believe that quality of life is not enhanced by economics or technology. It's the person's spiritual condition that makes the person's quality of life great or small. Also, suffering can often enhance a person's spiritual condition, and one thing I did read about people in the Medieval Ages, according to historian William Durant, was that they bore suffering with great bravery. That, to me, is an indication of a strong and blessed spiritual condition. That spiritual condition is what gives real quality to life. Widespread passion about religion and interaction with God is known to have been very powerful in that era. I believe that this lent a level of joy to life in Medieval society that doesn't exist so commonly in the modern era. The quality to life that a relationship with God gives also is a general point that applies to plagues, famines, infant mortality rate, life expectancy and all the rest. Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven is inside the heart. The person who has God in his or her heart is filled with what the Bible calls the fruits of the Spirit, righteousness, peace, joy and love. Paul commented that he had joy in all his sufferings. He lived in joy, "content in all circumstances," because he was spiritually in heaven while on Earth. And so sufferings can turn into blessings and add to quality of life, rather than detracting from it, and quality of life, I think, depends on the human's spiritual condition.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 05-31-2007 at 04:01 PM. |
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#458 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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Well, it's possible technology would continue to improve and solve problems under repressive theocrats, but I wouldn't say it was likely. And when it comes to medicine, I insist on casting my lot in with those damned souls who believe in evolution, because I think my chances of dealing with evolving viruses etc. are better with them.
I like the Rousseauian Mexico. Quaint. Too bad you're interfering in their perfect society with a lot of messy power tools and indoor plumbing. I'm sure the really spiritual folks were appalled. ![]()
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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#459 | ||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#460 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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Of course, the past doesn't have a monopoly on misery. Yes, we still have war. I believe one was started by an avowed baptist who lives in a white house off Pennsylvania Avenue.
![]() Interesting that you invoke global warming, yet we don't see the same vigour applied to reducing carbon emissions as to abortion or divorce. Disease: well, one third of the population was wiped out by the Black Death, so you would have to go some to beat that. But in general, disease was rampant in a way it just isn't nowadays in most of the world (they even have vaccines in Africa, you know). You may wish to ignore the benefits of the last 150 years or so of public health and sanitation, but it doesn't affect the fact that if you have a child it is far more likely to reach adulthood now than 200 years ago. But that's OK because they go to heaven?? You seem to be saying that it is not about health, wealth or technology, but about spiritual health. I agree that matters, but am interested in how you define it. |
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