11-12-2008, 08:17 PM | #441 |
Deus Ex Machina
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Thank you, Rian, that's a good analogy for what I was going for. It's the type of 'cannot' that comes about through a choice, though it may not seem like any choice at all.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
11-12-2008, 08:21 PM | #442 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Exactly!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-12-2008, 08:31 PM | #443 |
Elf Lord
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It's an interesting interpretation. I guess I have yet to come to a position on which I think is true . . . you two have shaken my confidence. I'll get back to you later, I guess, about it.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
11-12-2008, 08:43 PM | #444 |
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Take your time. It took me years of wavering belief and mulling over and trying to reconcile conflicting beliefs to come to that interpretation so I look forward to hearing your response when you've had a chance to think about it.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
11-12-2008, 09:34 PM | #445 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
If you told me I HAD to go to heaven and be there with most of the people packing for the trip? No amount of Abraham and Issac could persuade me. Fortunately, I don't believe it.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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11-12-2008, 11:57 PM | #446 | |
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If God is far above us - if He is far beyond our ability to grasp or understand on our own (without His Help), this type of evaluation may be worthless.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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11-13-2008, 12:16 AM | #447 | |
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Quote:
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
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11-13-2008, 12:50 AM | #448 |
Elven Maiden
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I agree, Valandil. Even just looking at different human ways of thinking, from culture to culture and person to person, it seems strange to try to understand something like God from any one of those perspectives. Human philosophy tends to be centered on humans, in a way.
Could this be another argument against mysticism? |
11-13-2008, 01:41 AM | #449 | |
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In Christianity, that is both God revealing Himself through His Word, and through His Son.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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11-13-2008, 02:46 AM | #450 |
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But even divine revelation ends up being filtered through humanity, however unintentionally.
It is never just about believing or just about figuring things out. Reason and belief are never exclusive of the other. Rather they form the basis of and feed off each other as the individual continues to grow.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
11-13-2008, 06:29 AM | #451 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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11-13-2008, 09:49 AM | #452 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And God also reveals Himself through creation, and esp. that part of creation made in His image.
The one bit I'd disagree with in Willow's statement is "evil within Himself" - I think it's clear in Scripture that there is no evil in God, but what we were talking about was the "physical" possibility of evil.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-13-2008, 12:27 PM | #453 |
Elf Lord
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Not when you have an infallible mechanism provided for the clarification of that original revelation . If you have someone standing next to you, telling you what he meant by what he wrote, you have no excuse for misinterpreting him. He can answer your questions and it's obvious what he means.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
11-13-2008, 05:20 PM | #454 |
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Does this infallible mechanism stand over the shoulder of every scribe and translator the message goes through over thousands of years?
And will he answer our questions, or just smile and leave us knowing we have to work at finding the answers for ourselves?
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
11-13-2008, 06:33 PM | #455 |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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You can't understand him without reading his word. before you make any assumptions or any theories, you have to know as much about the subject as possible before you can comment on said subject; if you have never studied the bible you have no business talking about the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
11-13-2008, 09:20 PM | #456 |
Elf Lord
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He does stand over the shoulders of the scribes and translators, and he answers our questions. This "mechanism" is the Holy Spirit, when He speaks through the infallible Magesterium of the Catholic Church. Through the Magesterium, He gives the world the true interpretations of Christian truth. The Magesterium, when assembled and delivering dogma, Catholics (over half the Christians in the world) believe, makes infallible declarations of the will of God on matters of faith.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-13-2008 at 09:22 PM. |
11-14-2008, 03:38 AM | #457 |
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Speaking as a catholic who was brought up to believe just that... The Magesterium's infallibilty has been on shaky ground for a very long time.
You cannot ignore that the disconnect between its corrupt actions and the dogma it preaches is an established problem and has been raising questions among christians for centuries. Nor should you ignore historical record which shows that many of those interpretations were arrived at through human debate.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
11-14-2008, 04:40 AM | #458 | ||
Elf Lord
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The Church has had failings too, some very serious and some minor. Many have been widely publicized and falsely inflated by the Church's enemies, to create negative stereotypes of the Church. But its triumphant beauty is often ignored and the failings alone seen and attacked in our modern society, which still has in its mouth the mocking disdain of Enlightenment philosophers. But the moral failings of some Church leaders do not in any way bring challenge the capacity of God to declare infallible truths through them, in spite of their weakness. I don't know how much the Bible's authority means to you, but if it means much, consider Caiaphas, the High Priest in Israel, and probably among Israel's most wicked leaders. He killed the Messiah! Yet in spite of his evil ways, God prophesied through his mouth, because of his office, that Jesus would die for Israel and the "scattered children of God," or the Gentiles, to make them "one" (John 11:47-53). No matter how terrible a failure a man is, morally, God can still speak through him! Consider also the story of Balaam, one of Israel's most wicked and conniving opponents on its way to Canaan. He tried three times to curse Israel, and three times his curses were turned to blessings because the Lord spoke through him instead. He found himself unable to help himself, and so blessed Israel because God spoke through him. God is in charge . Human moral failings cannot trump His authority, so the Magesterium's dogma cannot be challenged by humanity's corruption without saying, "God is not omnipotent." He has the power to speak infallibly through corrupt people, if He wants to. Quote:
The apostles still argued with one another, as we can see from the Book of Galatians (Paul vs. Peter), but at the end of the debate, their councils nevertheless were considered to express the will of the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:28), which is of course infallible.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-14-2008 at 05:00 AM. |
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11-14-2008, 04:54 AM | #459 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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__________________
Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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11-14-2008, 05:02 AM | #460 |
Elf Lord
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*Slaps head.* Oh, gosh.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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