The Singers Thread

[Tessar]

My new understanding of singing a 'line' has completely changed my musical ideas. It's really surprising to me just how little a grasp I had on the idea before, and I'm glad that I've made such a step forward in my understanding of the concept. Even though it doesn't change my voice per-say, I'm finding that everything that I sing now sounds a little smoother and has more meaning behind it.

Originally Posted by Voronwen

Tessar, it's wonderful to hear about all of your progress. I also support your decision 100%.

Thank you . It's very encouraging to hear that from everyone, especially since I am sure this will not be an easy change for me to make. But I am hoping that I can learn to love having a career in business for however long that lasts. I'm hoping it will just be a springboard to a musical career, but who knows?

My history and literature studies have been invaluable tools in 'informing' me as a singer, especially where early music is concerned. It has also given me a chance to do other things and explore other interests.

I have also been strangely fascinated with history since this workshop! I now have a fire lit under me to do more historical research, and luckily we have multiple history channels on our cable network... so I've been recording those and watching them. I used to hate that stuff but now I completely adore it.

With a business AND music background, you could end up in an administrative position in the performing arts. My former teacher's son did just that, and still sings as well, and he's very happy.

That's part of what I'm wondering about... I might even be able to wrestle my way into an arts internship for some upcoming summer depending on how things workout. I am hopeful that having an actual 100% business degree might make me more viable than people who have 'music marketing' degrees that are lighter on the business side.




Soooooooo, we're still waiting to get to hear you, Voronwen!! When will this audio and video be available to us?

[Tessar]

Hmm, I gave my dad a voice lesson for the first time in a few months and I am concerned. I really wonder if stress, allergies, and years of singing with terrible technique haven't just fried his vocal cords. :-/

But I'm not giving up hope . Maybe he wont get so busy with work again and we'll be able to stick to a lesson schedule.

The biggest problem is that he can't even hum to find his placement... his voice is so far back in his throat that he hums with his tongue jammed up in the back. I didn't realize what was going on till I saw that he was humming with his mouth open. O_o I was like, "That should not be physically possible..." then it hit me: his voice is placed so far back in his throat that he's just basically swallowing his own tongue every time he sings.

We did have a little success with his range.... once he started supporting, and we got his mouth way wide open, he vocalized all the way up to a full voice G4, which is great. But his voice sounds super rough, and it's going to be impossible to tell for a while whether that's just his placement being so low, or whether his cords are actually fried.

I really hope it's just his placement, and we can fix that.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I didn't realize what was going on till I saw that he was humming with his mouth open. O_o I was like, "That should not be physically possible..." then it hit me: his voice is placed so far back in his throat that he's just basically swallowing his own tongue every time he sings.

Doesn't that depend on what sound you hum on?
If you hum on an "m", you need to close your lips, because that is where you form the "m" - but you could hum on an "n" instead, which is formed with your tongue in the area of your teeth, and with your mouth open. Or on an "ng", which is further back and close to your throat. Or even on a vowel. All of those would be done with your mouth open.

But I guess there are advantages to keeping your voice forward and humming on the "m" ...

[Tessar]

I was quite relieved today... I got my jaw to relax when I was singing. I didn't realize how tight it had become. I'm still in the process of undoing the strain that I put on my voice during those two weeks, and luckily I'm coming out ahead of where I was before the workshop... so it's nice that as I'm putting things 'back to normal' they're actually improving.

I'm also doing a 'speaking voice' program that I'm loving, because the entire thing so far is centered around releasing vocal tension to improve your speaking voice. Everything can be directly translated into the singing voice, so it's been quite a help.

I'm a little anxious. I'm supposed to sing this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SguNpDynB2k next Sunday for three services, and it's deceptively difficult. He makes it sound like a walk in the park, but it actually covers quite a range of notes, and some of the leaps and dips are a real trick to sing. I can currently 'survive' it, but I want it to sound really good. I can do it! It's just going to take work and focused determination!

... my biggest concern is singing it at 8 a.m. Geesh. My voice doesn't like to wake up before noon.

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Doesn't that depend on what sound you hum on?
If you hum on an "m", you need to close your lips, because that is where you form the "m" - but you could hum on an "n" instead, which is formed with your tongue in the area of your teeth, and with your mouth open. Or on an "ng", which is further back and close to your throat. Or even on a vowel. All of those would be done with your mouth open.

But I guess there are advantages to keeping your voice forward and humming on the "m" ...

Oh definitely, it all depends on the consonant you're trying to hum.

However, my dad's tongue problem is so bad that when he tries to hum on 'm', it's coming out as a combination of 'n' and 'm'. Listening to the recording I made of the lesson brought some other things to my attention... basically the tongue problem is so severe that every vowel he sings (even with his mouth wide open) comes out as an 'ng', because the back of his tongue is arched up to touch the top of his mouth.

So the order of the next lesson is going to be to try to get his tongue down and relax his jaw. I think we'll start with the usual warmup (breathing, support, and a full-range warmup), and then focus entirely on the tongue and jaw. Till we get the tongue down a little, it wont matter what else we do because jamming it up that high is preventing him from being able to place the voice properly, relax the jaw, sing a real vowel, and it's cutting him off from his full vocal range, not to mention blocking probably 80% of his sound.

I think if we can get the tongue down his voice will open up, but that could take ages and ages to do. The tongue is such a powerful muscle, and he's been singing that way for so long....


EDIT: I talked to him this evening, and he told me that using the 'wide open jaw' thing we did yesterday, he's suddenly been able to sing through some pieces of music that he couldn't before for choir so that's exciting! It means we're on the right track.

[Tessar]

AAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!! Massive happy times!!!!!!!!!!!

Keeping my tongue placed correctly has -always- been a problem for me, much like my dad. I used to just about swallow it when I sang, so to get it to where it has been now was a major victory, but it has still been a struggle, and my teacher keeps telling me that as soon as I can figure out how to keep it down consistently, my voice will start to really 'pop into place'.

Well last night my dad said, "I tried keeping my tongue touching my back molars and it really helped." And I thought to myself, "lucky. I've tried that and it never works."

But this morning I figured 'what the heck, I'll try it again,' and IT WORKS! It constantly amazes me how the things I used to try to do to fix my vocal problems didn't work, but now I'll try them again and they suddenly work. It's awesome. I'll have to remember to thank my dad for reminding me about it.

It's a nice improvement, too. It gives me more 'volume' on the high notes, my vowels are much more pure, and I'm suddenly getting these really neat overtones that I've never heard in my voice before. It makes me sound 'crisper', if that makes any sense. Less muddy.

SO excited!


Of course the downside is that now NOTHING feels or 'sounds' right any more, and I'm having to readjust to what I'm hearing in my head and feeling. But then that happens every time I have a vocal breakthrough. -_- It's worth it, but it is kind of a pain.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Tessar

But then that happens every time I have a vocal breakthrough. -_- It's worth it, but it is kind of a pain.

And how many have you had of those over the last year? It's been a year of intensive learning for you. Good to solve another problem!

[Tessar]

AAAAAH!!! Someone got video recordings of me doing the Don Giovanni and the Thais!!! I'm gonna upload 'em to youtube and then post the links here.

You guys gotta see the Thais... I say that because the music is soooo beautiful. Massenet is a musical genius.

[Tessar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uHAzotc32o

WHEE!! Thais! The sound quality is not great, it sounds much better on the file I have on my computer, but oh well. I could pull apart a ton of things in the singing and acting that need work, but honestly I'm just grateful I survived.


Although seriously.... who's idea was it to make me look like a 12 year-old? >.< Geeze. I know, some day I'll be grateful, but right now it's just annnnoying.

[Tessar]

Hmmm, well listening to the recording of my latest voice lesson has revealed to me two things: 1. I think I'm pushing too much breath when I sing and 2. My voice sounds hollow.... which I think means my placement is not yet correct.

On the good side: I sound nice. That's a major improvement from where I started!

I'm not entirely sure how to fix the breath pressure, except to start focusing my attention on more warmup exercises that involve controlled breath release (like hissing, long exhalation, etc.) and to continue refining my breath support.

The placement thing is another puzzler. I guess I just need to get back to placement basics and keep exploring how much further forwards I can put my voice before it becomes too forward.

Of course there's a possibility that the hollowness is just because I'm young and my voice hasn't finished maturing yet, but I doubt that. I think it's a placement thing.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yes, you do; creamy smooth baritone. Your Thais also has a lovely voice.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Yes, you do; creamy smooth baritone. Your Thais also has a lovely voice.

Thank you . Means a lot coming from an opera lover such as yourself. I feel like it took me a very long time to get to the point where I started sounding nice instead of just choked off, or throaty, so I try to keep in mind (when I get frustrated) that my voice really has come an awfully long way from where it started... Heck, going from hearing people say, "You might have an okay voice for a choir teacher," to "You could have a great career if you keep at it," is an improvement in and of itself.

Yes both of my Thais girls were fantastic! That one in particular had a big voice, and just about the most beautiful high Eb's that I've ever heard. She's either gonna be a large voiced lyric with a great extension, or some kind of dramatic coloratura. She really held her voice back for the Thais, it's quite a big voice.

[Varnafindë]

You do sound nice! Great finally to hear you (and to see you ) - and in some real performance, too, not just something you recorded from your lessons!

I recognized that piano music at the end - I've definitely heard it on its own, without any singing to go with it.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

You do sound nice! Great finally to hear you (and to see you ) - and in some real performance, too, not just something you recorded from your lessons!

Thank you . I appreciate all of your kind comments and encouragements.

I recognized that piano music at the end - I've definitely heard it on its own, without any singing to go with it.

It's the "meditation" from Thais, which is a -very- beautiful piece often played on violin.


I had a fantastic voice lesson today. The tongue thing we fixed, along with a realization I had about my registration, have made an -enormous- difference. Today I sang a piece I wasn't able to sing last semester.

On the downside, we tried to sing one of my old pieces and it was -horrible-. I can't bring the new techniques to it... the old habits are just too strong. But when we switched over to a new piece I've never sung before, it was incredibly easy... which is funny, because the new piece is -way- harder than the old piece; it sits higher in my voice, and has much higher notes.

I'm excited! She thinks I'm almost technically and vocally at a point where we could check out the "Votre Toste" from Carmen (the bull fighter's song), which would be great! I mean I don't think I would be ready to 'perform' it for many years yet, but to work on shouldn't be a problem pretty soon.

[Rían]

That was mesmerizing, Tessar, and I'm not even an opera fan! I don't know how you walk around and sing like that - I think I'd fall down or trip or something Thanks for sharing

edit - btw, what act/scene was that? IOW, what's going on, since I don't know French!

2nd edit - Your accompanist seemed to do a great job, too, at least from my uneducated POV - from your educated POV, was he/she good?

also another note - the lyricism that you guys made was really nice - as you took turns with your parts, it didn't seem like you were tossing a ball around ("my turn!" "now my turn!"), it seemed ... oh, kind of like you were holding the two ends of a ribbon, and took turns dancing with it, and then both danced in the duets. It was very smooth and ... kind of continuous, if you know what I mean.

Originally Posted by Tessar

On the downside, we tried to sing one of my old pieces and it was -horrible-. I can't bring the new techniques to it... the old habits are just too strong.

Reminds me of a coupla pieces I play on the harp - I learned some before I took lessons, not realizing my technique was totally wrong (which affects the sound, too) and whenever I play those pieces, I go back to back technique

[Tessar]

Proud of myself... sang really well in choir rehearsal tonight and kicked some serious vocal butt on a really hard piece, then came home and sang a little bit more... even popped out an F4 or two at home. My throat is tired, but I sound good and I'm pretty sure it has a lot to do with a long day (left the house at 8:30a.m.and didn't get back home till 10p.m.) and the amount of singing I did... plus I think this new way of singing is making me engage muscles in my throat that I haven't used as much before (to keep the larynx steady), because it's not a "bad" tiredness like my throat is about to get sore... just feels like a little fatigue.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

edit - btw, what act/scene was that? IOW, what's going on, since I don't know French!

It is in the third act... I think it might actually be the first part of the third act. It is a truly beautiful scene... and quite emotionally charged. The opera is about a priest and a high class courtesan.

The basic story is that the priest thinks he wants to go find this courtesan and save her soul for God. He rebukes her, eventually convinces her to renounce her lifestyle, and they begin to journey across the desert towards a nunnery.

This particular scene starts where they are traveling through the desert and she is exhausted (they both are) and she asks if they can stop. At first he says no, and rebukes her further. Then she almost collapses and he changes his tone. Then he goes off to get her fruit and water, and when he comes back he's completely overwhelmed by her beauty. The duet is the moment when he realizes he is totally head-over-heels for her, and she (unaware of his love) completely commits herself to God.

Just then the nuns show up, and she leaves and he is struck by the fact that he'll never see her again. I wont spoil the ending of the opera (if you don't already know/guess it) but it's quite a tear-jerker. You should check it out!

2nd edit - Your accompanist seemed to do a great job, too, at least from my uneducated POV - from your educated POV, was he/she good?

also another note - the lyricism that you guys made was really nice - as you took turns with your parts, it didn't seem like you were tossing a ball around ("my turn!" "now my turn!"), it seemed ... oh, kind of like you were holding the two ends of a ribbon, and took turns dancing with it, and then both danced in the duets. It was very smooth and ... kind of continuous, if you know what I mean.

Oh heck yes. He is EXTRAORDINARY!!! He works with some of the opera companies to get opera singers ready (i.e. he coaches them on their pronunciation, vocalization, etc.) and he works with opera singers to get them ready to go audition for those big opera companies. He is not only an incredible pianist, but an amazing musician overall.

He and the director are the reason for that lyrical flow you noticed to our singing... when the girl in the video and I showed up, we both pretty much put it flat out on the table for the director and accompanist that we both felt out of our league with the music and that we were struggling. They worked with us till it came together as much as we could make it. Even the 28 year-old struggled a bit, because it's reeeeally hard music, but of course she was much better "equipped" to handle the challenge.

[Tessar]

Know how you have those weird moments where everything sort of comes together at once?

We've had a 'guest' conductor the last two weeks while our director has been out of town (she's one of our alto section leaders), and at first I was sort of "don't love it or hate it" about her directing style, but it's grown on me and I really love it now.

Today our usual choir member who plays the piano for the mid-day rehearsal group was sick, so I offered to plunk out notes. It's funny, because for the last few months I have been playing the piano a lot more than I usually do. I don't know why, the urge has just constantly been there. So luckily my piano skills were in okay shape. She was impressed that I could play at all under pressure, so my many mistakes didn't phase her .

Then at the end of the final service, I saw a thing in the choir room about how a local group is about to start auditioning. Since I wont be in a school choir next semester it suddenly hit me, "Maybe I should join a non-academic choir." So for some reason I stopped the guest director and asked her if she knew of any good groups I should audition for.

This afternoon she e-mailed me saying that she's been wanting to get together a group of guys to do a small choir group for some really great music (she and I have a similar taste in music), and asking if I'd be interested in doing it if she can get a group together.

Weird! Maybe nothing will come of it, but either way it was just a weird colliding of multiple events. This is the kind of thing that makes me believe there's no such thing as 'luck' . Things seem to happen all at once for a reason. It's also nice to have this little 'event' (even if it doesn't pan out) just as I'm getting worried about losing my motivation.

I'm pretty nervous about this whole changing my major thing, but I believe that it's the right thing to do. I'm anxious, but it 'feels' right and it is definitely logical. Hope and pray.

[Varnafindë]

Sounds like a very good idea!
And it also sounds like what I like to call "carefully planned coincidences".

[Tessar]

My friend and I decided on Tuesday that we're going to try to do some kind of a Christmas thing. We're not sure where... maybe at one of the churches in town, or maybe just try hitting some open mic nights.

So we made a big list of Christmas songs, and we're trying to find more. We'll weed it down to about our 'top ten' and then see if our top ten lists match at all and go from there to narrow it down to maybe four or five pieces.

Any suggestions? This is what we have so far:

Three Ships
Silent Night
In the bleak midwinter
patapan
...riu-riu-chiu
Away in a manger (traditional)
noel
what child is this?
good king W.
Let there be peace on earth
God rest ye merry gentlemen
Adam lay ye bounden
Sussex Carol
In Dulci Jubilo
Once In Royal David's City
The Angel Gabriel
The Seven Joys of Mary
Love Came Down At Christmas
The Virgin Mary Had a Baby Boy
Gaudete
The Holly and the Ivy
Be merry, be merry
The Wexford Carol
Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence
Down In Yon Forest
We Wish You A Merry Christmas
Lo How A Rose Is Blooming
O Come Emanuel
Cherry Tree Carol
The Huron Carol
I Wonder as I Wander
Rocking Carol
See amid the winter's snow
A Virgin Unspotted
While Shepherds Watched The Flocks by Night
Joy To The World

We're thinking we could do them as duets (come up with some harmonies and whatnot) and possibly get someone (or I could take a stab at it) to play some finger-style guitar. Nothing strummy, because I think that sounds cheesy, but we both think a nice 'classical guitar' sound would be perfect for Christmas tunes.

I tend to lean towards wanting to pick the traditional folk-tune style of carols, but that's mostly because I'm so in love with "traditional" Irish music. I put traditional in quotes because of course up till about 30 years ago apparently Irish folk music didn't have harmonies, and it wasn't till people like Clannad and the Dubliners came along that people started adding harmonies.

[Varnafindë]

Some of my favorites:

Oh Little Town of Bethlehem
It came upon a Midnight clear
The Little Drummer Boy

The first two of those have two different tunes, and I prefer one of each - can't remember the composers of my favorite tunes off hand, though ...

[Tessar]

Oooh, Oh Little Town of Bethlehem is beautiful. I'll look for those alternate melodies.


I'm a little peeved this morning. I can't seem to find a good male (current) broadway singer that doesn't have enormous technique problems. It amazes me how some of these guys are famous because they're good looking and they can hit high notes, even though the rest of their voice is totally unstable. They all seem to have this really 'thin' vocal quality, and most of them have huuuuuge pitch problems, or can't sing a phrase without 'gulping' the first note/word.

I'm just annoyed because I'm trying to find some good, current vocal models (got plenty of 'old broadway' models) and I really can't find any.


Ooooon the plus side my voice is doing great. Loving the new technique, etc. The only thing is that I think I need to keep working on bringing my voice further forward.... now it's warm and very pleasant (which is great), and it's not as 'hollow' as it was before (you can hear a lot of that in the Thais), but it's still lacking some of the oomph it should have.

I've also just started playing piano for my friend's voice lessons... started working on her music the other day, and this will be -great- for my piano skills. I hope. O_o