06-28-2002, 04:33 PM | #441 | |
Elf Lord
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For example (goes one of the more simplistic arguments) human perception is limited to the universe. We cannot perceive that wich lies outside the universe. Yet we have evidence that "phenomena" that exist outside the universe are susceptible to the same math that affects phenomena "inside" the universe (universe being a handy term for the space/time bubble we live in). If mathematical concepts and other phenomena can exist merely as abstract concepts outside the bounds of perception, then it makes it more likely that other abstract concepts that are not strictly mathematical can exist. You can take a non platonist view of math, and say it's strictly a human invention, but we're going to have to argue about it. For one thing, Math comes from observation of phenomena, as a way of predicting future similar instances. If there were no correlating factors for us to discover, then the whole pile of cards would collapse.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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06-28-2002, 05:39 PM | #442 | |||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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My symmetry point is the same, in that while we see cubes dodecahedrons, etc as having a pleasing balance, they are innate properties of materials. Some infer the "intelligent design" concept from this behavior of matter, since humans desire to build with symmentry; an anthropomorphism of a discovered constant, described by mathematics. Quote:
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and only one of anything is slimmer than multiples or... non-existence. But, none can be proved or disproved.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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06-28-2002, 05:51 PM | #443 | ||
Elf Lord
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Well now, no one's saying that there has to be only a single instance for a theist position to be unfalse.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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06-28-2002, 06:07 PM | #444 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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06-28-2002, 06:40 PM | #445 | |
the Shrike
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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06-28-2002, 06:44 PM | #446 | ||
the Shrike
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 06-28-2002 at 06:48 PM. |
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06-29-2002, 08:32 PM | #447 |
Elven Warrior
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I was raised in a non-religous family and I have to admit that I myself am not very religious. I believe in a higher power and that there has to be something more than us out there, but I can't bring myself to believe all the hokey stories that come along with it. Adam and Eve, Noah's Arc that sort of thing.
I've been to many different churches and temples and other places of worship and the only one that I ever felt comfortable in was Westminister Presbateryian. (I know that's spelled wrong) The people there were okay with my lack of faith and never tried to force their religion on me, but let me come into my beleifs on my own. I left though and I still haven't found a church to call my own, maybe one day I'll find faith...
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______________________________ ------------------------------------------------ Seek for the Sword that was broken: In Imladris it dwells; There shall be counsels taken Stronger than Morgul-spells. There shall be shown a token That doom is near at hand For Isildur's Bane shall waken, And the Halfling forth shall stand. ______________________________ ------------------------------------------------ Whoo-hooo!!! I'm an Elven Warrior!!!!! |
06-30-2002, 01:54 AM | #448 |
The Rogue Elf
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The more you study and think about religions, the more you are convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. Just stop and actually think about it for a moment. What does it say about God if he goes to the trouble of creating an existence only to shower it with misery unless they worship him? If you don't even give a thought nowadays to someone going around on the streets saying he was the son of God, why on earth would you believe someone who went around saying it 2,000 years ago? Or even better, a book that says this happened 2,000 years ago?
Albert Einstein once said: "I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls." Christians and their God are not interested in finding truth, or having anything to do with it. Why else was man told by God not to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge? Knowledge and truth are the destroyers of belief and dogma. And life after death - what does this really solve? Ultimate pleasure and ultimate punishment? Don't we already have enough of the two in this world alone? I believe loss of existance is ultimate pleasure enough for the sufferer, and ultimate punishment enough for the sinner. To those of the faith here: I just believe in one fewer god than you do. And when you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. (If it sounds grouchy - it isn't. It's just on the 'net you have the downside of not hearing people talk or seeing facial expressions. ) |
06-30-2002, 11:41 AM | #449 |
Elven Warrior
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I usually don't discuss this topic, but I need to make a few points.
First of all, how can you say that man never worshipped anything but himself when he would make sacrifices to God? Second, God doesn't want to shower our lives with misery. It's because we rely on ourselves too much for everything so that because of what we do without Him it all goes amiss. Third, somebody going around today saying they're the son of God would be a big fake who needs to understand what he's actually doing (blasphemy). The real Son of God has already been here and he died for an unrighteous world that turned against Him and killed Him for spreading the love of God! I have a t-shirt that says " While He was on the Cross, YOU were on His mind ". Fourth, so what if He was here 2000 years ago? And the Bible was written long before Jesus' time. His teachings still apply to our lives. Fifth, if Albert Einstein denied the very existence of God in his life, and didn't turn from that idea until he died, I can guarantee you that he is in someplace really hot right now. Sixth, if Christians and God weren't interested in finding truth, why does the Bible exist and why would God bother trying having us turn back to Him? Or why would God allow incredibly smart people stay alive? Seventh, you're talking about worldly ultimate pleasure and ultimate punishment. When you die, ultimate pleasure, as you put it, would be to live in Heaven eternally in peace. Ultimate punishment would be to live in Hell eternally in torture, to put it lightly. But the best ultimate pleasure while you live would be to rely on God and be under His protection until you die, then when you do, go to live with Him forever in Heaven. Ultimate punihment would be to successfully live without Him, then when you die, find that your success was in vain and find yourself stuck in Hell. Eigth, when you said you believed in one fewer god than those of the faith reading your post, for me that means you don't believe in a god at all. If you don't decide to change your ideas before you die, then I know I won't be seeing you in Heaven. (Oh, and on the net, it's so nice not to be interrupted.) |
06-30-2002, 03:10 PM | #450 |
Hoplite Nomad
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Anduril, Bop, RE, maybe even Blackheart or Cirdan I leave this easy prey unto you
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 06-30-2002 at 03:11 PM. |
06-30-2002, 03:24 PM | #451 |
Hoplite Nomad
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actually that was some unintentionally funny stuff.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
06-30-2002, 03:29 PM | #452 | |
Hoplite Nomad
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I think I know how you read your bible. Higher level semantics is not your stong point. Reread it and think about it.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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06-30-2002, 04:20 PM | #453 |
The Original Corruptor
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Unless he/she wants to make some sort of valid/strong argument, instead of arguing by assertion/proselytizing/sermonizing, I really couldn't be bothered.
Although point eight was rather profound... |
06-30-2002, 04:40 PM | #454 | |
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06-30-2002, 05:59 PM | #455 | ||||||||||
the Shrike
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Also: we are less gullible these days. It would take a lot more than a few magic tricks to win over the cynical population. And again, this has been pointed out tonnes of times in the thread... which you might actually have seen, if you'd bothered to read the whole thing. Quote:
Also, the bible was actually compiled several years AFTER Jesus' death on the cross. Quote:
Also: Albert Einstein did a lot of good for humanity.... shame that according to your narrowminded beliefs that all his good is going to see him going straight to hell, because of his so-called lack of belief (which is wrong, because as far as I am aware, he was fairly religious.) How... unmerciful of him. Quote:
Also: your belief is that God is not going to intervene until Judgement Day. That is why there are still smart people - because of his so-called non-intervention. Quote:
And believe me, I'm gonna take my chances in hell. Ultimate pleasure sounds... boring. I can think of much more fun activities! Quote:
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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06-30-2002, 09:10 PM | #456 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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...and so boys and girls, that is why you never just jump into a sword fight armed with a butter knife.
oh, yeah, on the third.... KNEES! ...and pants, of course. easy prey... :hehe: good one A-E!
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
07-01-2002, 12:56 AM | #457 |
Elven Warrior
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rána Eressëa Christians and their God are not interested in finding truth, or having anything to do with it.
__________________________________________________ _ Funny, it was because Christ struck me as being totally truthful that I first became a Christian. I know, obviously not everyone feels that way. _________________________________________________- I believe loss of existance is ultimate pleasure enough for the sufferer, and ultimate punishment enough for the sinner. How is loss of existence pleasurable? It seems like the ultimate horror to me, and always has. Most sane people enjoy existence. This thread seems out of place in the Entmoot -- but don't let me stop you. But it could go on forever . . .obviously nobody's going to change his mind. Hey, we've got six months to kill. |
07-01-2002, 01:09 AM | #458 | ||
the Shrike
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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07-01-2002, 01:21 AM | #459 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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07-01-2002, 01:34 AM | #460 | |
the Shrike
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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