Theology IV

[inked]

Originally Posted by katya

Thanks for the responses so me everyone. Please understand, I'm not trying to get you to write the paper for me. I'm just kind of seeing what everyone thinks. My professor specifically said that it was ok to "share sources and seek advice", and that "healthy discussion of intellectual topics is not cheating". It's just that he's a really hard grader on essays, and I want to do really well on it. I'll post it when it's done, if you like. And of course, paper aside, I think it's an interesting topic. It's the one question out of 5 that I picked for the paper.

K, good on ya! I didn't mean to suggest that you were getting all the Mooters to do a paragraph or two for ya! And I would like to read the final paper.

[The Telcontarion]

Jesus was never talking to any heathen, so when he said all, he meant all of Israel not the world as in the human race.

When the word "world" is used it is coming from the greek word "kosmos" from which it was translated. In it's strictest sense it means not the planet but a specific world eg. insect world or fashion world etc. Jesus as I have pointed out came to save the jews only, so he could not have been talking about saving other people who never received the laws in the first place and never made righteous in the first place by them. It was the world of the jews that were to be saved not everyone else, the scriptures clearly states none of you knew the law, save Israel alone:

Psalm 147
19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. 20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.

To understand this better you have to understand the covenant that god made with Israel:

Deuteronomy 14:2
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light;

Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

We are to be the priest of the most high and take the word of god to the world and judge the world according to the laws. Just as Bush sends Condoleezza Rice to Iraq or any other country for diplomatic reasons so too god chose Israel to take his world to the world. He himself is not coming to all people who donot have the law, who are "spit." He did not even come to all of Israel, he came to Moses only and expressly told him not to allow the people to come unto the mountain least he "break upon them" (kill them). So not even Israel was righteous enough to deal directly with the most high.

Our role is as when Moses was in the wilderness judging the people and his daily judgments were so many that he eventually set others under him to judge as well. That is our role to the most high to do the dirty work of judging the heathen nations who know not the law. So that is why Israel was brought down by god because they did not fulfil the covenant. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, the Romans and America all made us slaves because we turned from god. It was all apart however of the plan as we had to be "tried" to become worthy of this honor, perfect in the law:

Malachi 3:3
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Isaiah 1:25
25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

Zechariah 13:9
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire [1/3 of Israel/the elect], and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house[Israel] there are not only vessels of gold and of silver[the1/3], but also of wood and of earth{the 2/3]; and some to honour[the 1/3], and some to dishonour[the 2/3].

Psalm 66:10 For thou, O God, hast proved us: thou hast tried us, as silver is tried.

Proverbs 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times[b/c the flesh is weak], and riseth up again[but the spirit is willing]: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

That is why Israel was repeatedly punished, repeatedly oppressed:

Proverbs 13:24
He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes.

Proverbs 23:13-14
Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

The gold and silver that is repeatedly mentioned by the way is the elect, 1/3 of Israel. No other group has been tested by the laws but Israel, we have been threw the fire, we have been tried. It follows therefore that we alone can be the judges and priests. Only we are worthy:

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The bottomline is, Israel has to be saved first before the world can be saved. We have to get right first so we can perform the covenant and so you can be saved. Or gods promise would have been for naught and the scripture teaches that, that shall never be.

This is the same reason why the scriptures say that jesus shall rule with a rod of iron; tyranny. Because when the kingdom is setup, the rest of the world will be tried as we have been tried. So you too can be worthy:

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Brace yourself.

More on what Israel will become:

1 Corinthians 6:3-4
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

Even angels shall we judge, think not that we will not judge you too:

Jeremiah 51:19-20
19 The portion of Jacob is not like them; for he is the former of all things: and ISRAEL is the ROD of his inheritance: the Lord of hosts is his name. 20 Thou art my battle axe and weapons of war: for with thee will I BREAK IN PEACES the nations, and with thee will I destroy kingdoms

Leviticus 26
8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.

Ezekiel 25:14
And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD.

All nations enslaved us, persecuted us and it all will come back unto your head and god's vengeance wil be carried out us, his people:

Revelation 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Zechariah 14:12
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

That last sounds like nuclear fire...

Jeremiah 16:14-15
14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; 15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

Land of the north? hmmmmmm...where are the descendants of slaves today? In america, babylon the great.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Well, at least this POV has the advantage that lil white girls don't need to trouble ourselves about it. If the only ones to be saved have dark skin and nappy hair, all the rest of us can relax.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Well, at least this POV has the advantage that lil white girls don't need to trouble ourselves about it. If the only ones to be saved have dark skin and nappy hair, all the rest of us can relax.

Actually that is not the case. We Israelites are not now all black and not just since slavery. Many people in Ireland, England, Scotland (which means burned man) Italy and Spain, who appear white are in fact Israelites themselves; even Russia.

I can't find the scripture right now but there is one that says we will look like the nations; my mothers natural hair color is blond and my grandfather had blue eyes. That is why the scriptures say we will be gathered from all the corners of the world where we were scattered.

Whatever unfolds, the judgment will be righteous. I doubt that not.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Hmm. You see, I disagree with John Calvin's thesis of "total depravity," the idea that we are so completely sinful that there isn't any goodness whatsoever within any of us, here on Earth. I believe more in a "partial depravity," concept, the idea that there is both good and evil in everyone while they are here on Earth. If we are totally depraved, then even our seemingly "good" acts are bad, and therefore should not be loved, and all our thoughts and words are at their root "bad," and so should be rightfully despised by anyone truly righteous. I doubt that you honestly believe in Calvin's "total depravity" thesis, either. The Psalms say, "hate what is evil, love what is good." If there were no parts within us that were good (and anything good is deserving of mercy) then God could only hate us completely, and logically we would be called to hate everyone completely too because it is totally depraved.

As I understand Total depravity, it actually means that man is incapable, through himself, of choosing God, but that God must given him grace before he is able to do so. Understood thus, it is a true doctrine.

If there is anything good within a person, then that part (considered separately from all the evil parts) deserves good treatment, or "mercy." If I am generous and spiteful, my generosity deserves to be spared and nourished, and my spitefulness deserves to be condemned.

I think it is false to separate a person into this different bits and pieces, some of which deserve mercy, and some of which do not. A person is indivisible.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

In Orthodox Christianity, we love and encourage mysticism.

Hmm? Orthodox Christianity? Swimming over to Moscow now?
[/QUOTE]

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

As I understand Total depravity, it actually means that man is incapable, through himself, of choosing God, but that God must given him grace before he is able to do so. Understood thus, it is a true doctrine.

Okay . Thanks for the correction.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I think it is false to separate a person into this different bits and pieces, some of which deserve mercy, and some of which do not. A person is indivisible.

I wrote that as the soul is the guiding entity representing all the parts of the person, the person ultimately is responsible for his sin and undeserving of God's mercy.

I think that personalities do have many different "pieces" to them, though. As I mentioned, a very generous person can also be very spiteful. The spiteful "part" deserves condemnation while the generous part should be spared and encouraged. I know that both ultimately are parts of the same person, and the same human being is responsible for both. I don't think Christianity is fundamentally opposed to the existence of an anatomy, though .

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Hmm? Orthodox Christianity? Swimming over to Moscow now?

Catholicism forever .

You know what I meant in my use of the term, "orthodoxy," I think.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Lief - I'm not a whit Calvinistic myself. But one need not believe in man's "total depravity" to take the view that God chooses to have mercy on us when we do not believe it - rather than that He, in all justice, shows mercy to those good things in us that deserve mercy. The first (God's choosing) is totally based on scripture. The second is not. God's choice to extend mercy is what Grace is all about.

I'm sorry for coming across in a confusing way. My guess is that that's what has happened. I fully believe, and stated in my post, that God chose to gave mercy to us when we did not deserve it. I agree with you about that, and I think it's critically important.

In my post, I was looking in more detail at how this could be. I was taking it to the next step, in other words, explaining that God, as He is Love, could not Love anything that was totally evil, for the Psalms say to hate what is evil and love what is good. This is a necessary part of the nature of love. So God's love for us could only exist to the extent that we are good. Because He cannot love evil. God, in His mercy, chose not to punish us for our sinful choices but to perfect the parts of us that are good (to the extent that they're good), and to create a broad array of new virtues within us through His Son.

Maybe it's not even worth trying to explain this. It's not very important to understand or agree on, as far as I can see . We agree on what you're talking about, that God loved the world that did not deserve His love, and bestowed on that world mercy it did not deserve.

Originally Posted by Valandil

As for your response to Katya, please be more cautious in the future. We do try not to write people's papers for them here at Entmoot.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Telecontarion

Now the point here is, you keep saying what you believe as appose to what the scriptures say and to explain why one should not do that goes hand in hand with the proper break down of the quote of yours above.

On the contrary, I supported my stated position with five explicit passages, all of which say right out that Jesus offered Himself up for the entire world.

I agree with you that the flesh is weak. That does not make it "no good," for if it was no good, God would not have created it and certainly would not have clothed Himself in it. God does not commit evil.

The Gnostics of the Early Church period thought as you do, that the flesh is evil. They were justly and repeatedly condemned in the Epistles. If the flesh was evil, Jesus would never have offered up His "flesh" and "blood" for everyone to eat and drink, at the Eucharist. Whether the Eucharist is interpreted as symbol alone or as Real Presence, the word choice was "flesh" and "blood," so by whichever interpretation you use, this still raises the supernatural flesh to a great level.

Jesus also was resurrected in an eternal body that has flesh, blood and bone. It is ludicrous to say that there is no value in the flesh, consequently.

A mistake you're making is conflating two different uses of the term "flesh" in Scripture. One kind of reference to "flesh" is the flesh of your body and mine. Other times, the word "flesh" is used in Scripture to mean "the sinful nature." You're missing the fact that while the word sometimes has literal meaning, other times it is used with spiritual meaning.

Originally Posted by Telecontarion

Matthew 10:5-6
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

How can it be said that gentiles can be saved given what is said above; Jesus i does not change (Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever/Malachi 3:6 - For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed):

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

He was sent for Israel only, that is plane!!!

St. Paul wrote,

(Rom 1:16 KJV) "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

This explains what you're reading. Jesus came "to the Jew first," which is why He told the people He was only coming to the house of Israel.
This was because they are God's Chosen People. As God's chosen, they receive His blessings first, and His curses first (for disobedience and sin).

He comes second to the Gentile, and He proceeds to them through the Spirit, as is repeatedly stated in Acts and other books.

See also Romans 11:17, which says the Gentiles were not natural branches but had to be grafted onto the tree. This clearly could not be referring to the missing tribes of Israel, for they were natural branches, part of God's Chosen People. They were simply lost. The Gentile unbelievers were unnatural branches, though, like a wild olive tree, just as the Scripture says.


I thank you for replying to me at such length. I'm afraid I'm not going to respond in the same amount of detail, as your position looks to me so extremely bizarre that I don't want to take great time pondering it.

May God bless you and watch over both of us.

[Willow Oran]

God, as He is Love, could not Love anything that was totally evil, for the Psalms say to hate what is evil and love what is good. This is a necessary part of the nature of love. So God's love for us could only exist to the extent that we are good. Because He cannot love evil.

I hesitate to enter this discussion, as I'm not an expert, or even a very orthodox believer, but I am quite certain that God is supposed to be all powerful and infallible. Meaning that to say He cannot do anything and by saying so to put conditions on His love is technically blasphemy.

I was taught as a catholic that His love is unconditional and His mercy limitless. The power to love and forgive even the very evil is supposed to be beyond all but the most enlightened of mankind and is thus the core of God's omnipotence.
Of course, I was also taught that all humans are born sinners and that we had to actively seek out that forgiveness by following Church rituals such as Baptism and Confession and by virtuous living. I think it was that part that you were trying to get at, Lief... Anyway, that's my two cents on the subject.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

I hesitate to enter this discussion, as I'm not an expert, or even a very orthodox believer, but I am quite certain that God is supposed to be all powerful and infallible. Meaning that to say He cannot do anything and by saying so to put conditions on His love is technically blasphemy.

If God loved evil, He would not be Love, for to love evil is to be evil, and evil is contradictory to the nature of love.

I think you're misunderstanding the nature of omnipotence. While God has unlimited resources and unlimited power to act, He still corresponds to reason. In books of the Bible like Proverbs and Ecclesiasticus, you can see "Wisdom" highly, highly praised. Wisdom sits on the throne of God and is a pure reflection of the glory of God, according to Scripture. And according to the Epistles, the Son of God Himself is called "the Wisdom of God." Reason is essential to wisdom. God does not contradict reason. He creates it. Where God is, reason is.

If you got put in a position of checkmate in a game of chess, and God took over your side, He would still be unable to come up with a move that got you out of the checkmate position as long as He behaved in accord with the rules of the game. You could call that a "limit" on his omnipotence, if you like.

God is not self-contradictory. He is unchanging. He makes sense. And His power is not "above good and evil." His power is good.

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

I was taught as a catholic that His love is unconditional and His mercy limitless. The power to love and forgive even the very evil is supposed to be beyond all but the most enlightened of mankind and is thus the core of God's omnipotence.

God is fully willing to forgive any evil humans commit here on Earth, if they repent. Forgiving evil and loving evil are two extremely different things, though. God does forgive evil. He does not love evil. He hates evil, for if He did not, He would not be truly loving. Therefore, if He loves us, there must be something in there that's worth loving. If it's all utterly and entirely black, God could not love us, as He cannot love evil.

If some lout started raping my sister, I would hate his act because I love my sister. Anyone who loved the rapist's act would be evil and unloving. This is true of God too. If it was not, you and I could not love Him, because we would not be made in His image.

Of course, I was also taught that all humans are born sinners and that we had to actively seek out that forgiveness by following Church rituals such as Baptism and Confession and by virtuous living. I think it was that part that you were trying to get at, Lief... Anyway, that's my two cents on the subject.

Thanks for contributing!

[Willow Oran]

I think you're misunderstanding the nature of omnipotence. While God has unlimited resources and unlimited power to act, He still corresponds to reason.

There isn't much to misunderstand. All-Powerful is what it is. I was objecting to your usage of "cannot." As an omnipotent being God can love evil, but as it would in itself be evil to do so, he chooses not to. The end result, that He does not love evil but forgives it for the sake of the good existing alongside it, is the same.

[Lief Erikson]

I found a website that may represent my position rather better than I can:

God cannot do anything evil. The Bible is quite clear that God is not the author of evil and insists that He is incapable of doing so.

Aha! You ask ... but isn’t God Omnipotent? Yes! He is! But omnipotent means “all powerful” not “without limitations”. None of these above truths about God compromise His omnipotence. God's omnipotence does not mean that He can do what is impossible, only that He has the power to do anything that is actually possible, even if it is impossible for us. God’s very nature consists of all that is pure, righteous, holy and just. Anything outside of those parameters, God cannot do.

http://www.doveirc.net/godcantdo.htm
One of the scriptures the site quotes is pretty important to my thinking on the matter:

“If we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.” - 2 Timothy 2:13

Wisdom is a deep part of God's nature, and ultimately, His nature is Love. Paul writes, "He cannot disown Himself," so He cannot end His own Love.

[The Telcontarion]

Seriously, you guys need to use scriptures to backup what you are saying. Again, stop talking about what you, feel what you think and what you want to be believe. 90% of what you guys are saying about the word has none of the scriptures in it.

That is why I changed my signature, to serve as a warning and to present to you the spirit of what is going to transpire on the day of judgment:

Luke 13:23-28
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate (the scriptures): for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Stop going your own way I will warn you no more:

26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence (lol, pleading), and thou hast taught in our streets (but u did not listen). 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (aahhh), when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

[inked]

Hmm, the law of noncontradiction applies to God. So to argue that He is all-Powerful and can make a rock so big He cannot lift it does not make sense. It does make nonsense. Just because nonsense is predicated of God does not mean it is true. Credit to CS Lewis, of course.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by inked

Hmm, the law of noncontradiction applies to God. So to argue that He is all-Powerful and can make a rock so big He cannot lift it does not make sense. It does make nonsense. Just because nonsense is predicated of God does not mean it is true. Credit to CS Lewis, of course.

Pray tell, what exactly is the nonsense of which you speak?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Seriously, you guys need to use scriptures to backup what you are saying. Again, stop talking about what you, feel what you think and what you want to be believe. 90% of what you guys are saying about the word has none of the scriptures in it.

That is why I changed my signature, to serve as a warning and to present to you the spirit of what is going to transpire on the day of judgment:

Luke 13:23-28
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate [the scriptures]: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Stop going your own way I will warn you no more:

26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence [lol, pleading], and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth [aahhh], when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Relax, Telcontarion .

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Pray tell, what exactly is the nonsense of which you speak?

We were talking about the meaning of God's omnipotence. Inked was responding to Willow Oran.

[Willow Oran]

God cannot do anything evil. The Bible is quite clear that God is not the author of evil and insists that He is incapable of doing so.

Yet in that insistence the Bible diminishes God, for it is a much greater deity that can and has chosen to reject evil within Himself before rejecting it in others. Is that not what His mortal incarnation did in the desert and is it not what we are supposed to do in seeking forgiveness?

We are to believe that we have free will, that we must use it to choose what is good, and that making that choice is choosing the more difficult path.

We are also to believe that we are made in God's image and may take 'image' to be more than physical.

Given this, can we not believe that God also has free will and that because His Will is so much stronger, he has chosen a loving nature and will not now deviate from that choice?

I realize that this is not an orthodox interpretation, but I have thought it over for a very long time and I think it is a valid one.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

Given this, can we not believe that God also has free will and that because His Will is so much stronger, he has chosen a loving nature and will not now deviate from that choice?

I realize that this is not an orthodox interpretation, but I have thought it over for a very long time and I think it is a valid one.

I've thought a lot about it, too, and I think it is a very valid interpretation. In the same way that I "cannot" kill my kids because the good in me does not "allow" this (although the bad in me is sometimes tempted! ), I think that God, although physically "capable" of doing wrong, "cannot" do so, because he is all good.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Relax, Telcontarion .

But I am still right; lighning, brimstone and fire won't tickle.