04-08-2005, 07:43 AM | #421 | ||
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04-08-2005, 07:58 AM | #422 | |
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Rian didn't make up the term 'Biblical submission' - it's a term that any of us Christians might use to talk about submission in a Biblical context - because there IS context. Context is very important in understanding the Bible. Maybe the worst way to try to understand it is to take one small verse, or one small part of a verse (ie, "a wife must submit to her husband") without looking at the whole context - first of the passage where the phrase is found (and from this one in Ephesians, Paul makes this one statement about what the wife has to do - then 'harps on' for several verses about the husband's responsibilities - basically implying that the husband must love his wife enough to be willing to die for her... woman inferior? I don't think so!), then it's good to look at what a book is saying in its entirety - and finally, any part of scripture must be understood in light of the whole of scripture. Just looking at the context in these various levels can greatly change the understanding you get from reading the one verse. There's something else. Submission is the way of life for all Christians. We are all to 'submit' to, at various times, parents, elders, etc - and at all times to Christ. To take 'submission of the wife to the husband' outside of the context of mutual submission to Christ is what would make this UN-Biblical submission - or UN-Christian submission. Finally - marriage to a strong-minded women, even in the context of marriage along Biblical guidelines, is not doomed - not hardly. Every marriage will have its rough times anyway. The greater context of Christianity (when applied - and sadly, too few who take on the label of 'Christian' these days really seem to live out what they're claiming) when applied to marriage, will likely ensure a better marriage. (EDIT: Did you notice I even had to " submit reply"?
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04-08-2005, 08:09 AM | #423 |
The Intermittent One
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if women were so equal, then how is it that until the late 1700's a man could sell his wife, should he desire, and maybe trade in for a newer model?
(BTW that isn't supposed to sound as arrogant as it does, my usual problem of not being able to phrase words well) |
04-08-2005, 08:10 AM | #424 | |||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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04-08-2005, 08:11 AM | #425 | |
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04-08-2005, 08:12 AM | #426 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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04-08-2005, 08:22 AM | #427 | |
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We seem to be at an impasse - and I think it starts with where we start. One thing I know though is... I need to take a REAL fast shower if I'm going to get to work on time.
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04-08-2005, 08:22 AM | #428 | |
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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04-08-2005, 08:26 AM | #429 | |
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04-08-2005, 08:39 AM | #430 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 04-08-2005 at 08:43 AM. |
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04-08-2005, 08:53 AM | #431 | |
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B. Christianity has often been misused and 'the church' has often had it's corrupt times, sadly enough. Those responsible will have to answer for it one day. God's "mistake" (I'm being 'tongue-in-cheek' here) was to leave people in charge of it. Anyway, this was CERTAINLY not a policy espoused in the Bible - nor would it be advocated by responsible, conscientious Christianity.
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04-08-2005, 08:55 AM | #432 |
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yes it did happen, i would hardly make it up, a scientific chappie like me,
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04-08-2005, 09:00 AM | #433 | |
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As for believing what you were taught - you're rejecting the whole BASIS for believing what you were taught, aren't you? What you experienced in Indiana sounds to me more like what could happen (and often does) in more isolated and insular communities - regardless of the predominant religion. And yes - people are prone to stray... some do so by openly leaving their church and calling themselves atheists... others by 'flirting with the edges' maybe, like those pentacostals you met. Unfortunately, no group is immune to that, and it often seems to happen in those young adult years. Yes - there is variation in Christian beliefs - but there is also a lot that is common among all or almost all Christians. The distinctions are usually on the finer points - and the less substantial ones.
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04-08-2005, 09:02 AM | #434 | |
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But please give more specifics - particularly how you think Christianity was involved or to blame.
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04-08-2005, 09:06 AM | #435 |
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well how about the fact that it was authorised by monarchs (divine representative) and religious figures, such as bishops
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04-08-2005, 09:24 AM | #436 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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04-08-2005, 09:26 AM | #437 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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04-08-2005, 09:30 AM | #438 |
The Intermittent One
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no i think that one was in here
but then i keep forgetting which one i am in |
04-08-2005, 12:15 PM | #439 | |
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When I was working as an engineer at the military radar company, I was in charge of my group of software developers, because I was senior to most of them, and frankly I was quite good But sometimes I would be in a peer group with engineers in other areas, and we would choose a leader to run things, even tho we were peers, because it went more smoothly. Sometimes I would be the head, sometimes I wouldn't; I didn't care either way, because I knew we were all peers. It's that simple. So I repeat what I said: leader, yes; leader in the sense of superior, no.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-08-2005 at 12:17 PM. |
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04-08-2005, 12:31 PM | #440 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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To clarify why I used the term "Biblical submission" - I wanted to discuss, specifically, the type of wife-to-husband submission concept that I think is a good one, and is specifically described in the Bible, as opposed to other types of wife-to-husband submission concepts that are around. For example, in Islamic scriptures, the wife is told to obey the husband, and their scriptures say the husband should beat her if she doesn't. Another example is a person that has heard somewhere that the Bible said that a wife should obey her husband, and has no idea of the context or the accompanying verse that says the husband should love his wife as Christ loves the Church, and uses this to give himself a bad excuse to abuse his wife and treat her as a second-class citizen. NEITHER of these are "Biblical submission" - i.e., submission as specifically described in the Bible and in context (as opposed to an isolated verse). If I just said "submission", as opposed to "Biblical submission", then how would you guys know which one I'm talking about?
So the charge that I "sort of made up the word "biblical submission to take away the negative context" is just not true. I'm just trying to be very clear about which concept of submission I'm talking about, because there are many ideas out there, and IMO some are harmful and wrong.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-08-2005 at 02:00 PM. |
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