11-09-2002, 02:39 AM | #421 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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11-09-2002, 02:50 AM | #422 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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jerseydevil - I love F-15's - one of the few aircraft that can go straight up! I worked on the radar end of the F15 a teensy bit as a summer hire at Hughes Aircraft Co. I worked full-time after graduation as an engineer for a radar company, working with military air traffic control radars, but that was B.K. (before kids); now I consult part-time while kids are in school. F15s are my absolute all-time favorite a/c!! (my son's, too - he always says "F-15 E Eagle"). See if you can find a good pic of one.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-09-2002, 02:51 AM | #423 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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The new "Intelligent design" theorists I believe are just trying to get creationism taught in schools - without any real backing to support their theory other than the bible. They've basically invented this theory and tried to incorporate the Theory of Evolution in with the story of creationism. In order to have intelligent design - you'd need a supreme being. Science isn't trying to prove or disprove god - but it is trying to explain where we came from. We'd still be living in the dark ages without science - without religion we would most likely be living in peace.
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11-09-2002, 02:54 AM | #424 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-09-2002, 02:57 AM | #425 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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It's located at - http://www.usmilitaryart.com Or were you looking for an avatar?
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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11-09-2002, 03:09 AM | #426 | |
the Shrike
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Devotion doesn't necessarily mean worship, but conscientious devotion has a religious ring to it. As I said earlier, this has been covered numerous times before. If I'm being tetchy about it, it is because we've gone down this particular garden path before. On top of this, I have also done several papers for my degree relating to the study of ideologies, and how they evolve. Without meaning to sound arrogant, I know what I'm talking about when I say that atheism is an ideology NOT a religion (just as religion is an ideology.) If I'm nitpicking, it is because I have covered this so many times now with my lecturers, and on respective boards. (Late editting to fix some very bad grammar, and state my arguments more clearly. )
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11-09-2002, 04:20 AM | #427 | |||
Elf Lord
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Evolution, fast/slow, and chance
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I'm saying that there should be more mixture between all of the species, or most all. When something changes a tiny amount over time, and reproduces, and those others also reproduce a tiny amount over time, these two different branches aren't going to necessarily branch off in completely different directions. There are many different species out there, and many different kinds of insects which are totally unrelated to each other. This doesn't make sense if they were all originating from a similar source. We'd have perhaps a very few species which are completely unrelated to each other, not an enormous number. If a species changed its entire genetic makeup over a very large period of time, then you would see others in the same area/climate doing the same thing, although possibly in slightly different ways. All species don't evolve in precisely the same way, simply because they live in the same, or a similar area. The likelihood of such a thing happening is extremely small. If that was the case, then I think you'd see very, very many human related species around now, from species that didn't quite evolve the same way that we have. More human primates than we see now. And that's only one species, there are many others which also would be very closely related to one another. Assuming a fast evolution solves this problem, for although you would get different species closely related to each other, just like in the slow evolution example, you wouldn't get nearly as many. And I think the evidence that exists around us in the way that species are now suggests the likelihood of this theory being the correct one. Forgive me if some of my information is wrong on this. Unlike some of you, this isn't a subject that I've studied in great depth. Quote:
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11-09-2002, 04:22 AM | #428 | ||
Elf Lord
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Evolution, fast/slow, and chance
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You know what, I think that the difficulty in what is being said by all of you in this is that you're suddenly ignoring all of the discussion we just had about chance, and the possibility of science making a mistake. We've agreed (I think) that errors have happened in the past, and they might happen in the future, and they might be happening in the present. Believing the current scientific theories is a perfectly fine thing, and if no one believed them, then we wouldn't get anywhere. I'm not denying that there is evidence to support basically all of the theories that are out there now, so you don't have to quote the evidence to me. I know that there are reasons why people believe what they believe just now. But all scientific theories are still theories, and a groundbreaking discovery might suddenly uproot things that were previously "known." |
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11-09-2002, 04:35 AM | #429 |
Elf Lord
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Oh, Earniel, quite some time ago you asked for further information about that situation which helps give credit to the fast evolution theory that I mentioned. The one where four species evolved from one in only a few years on an island which had major environmental shifts going on which were forcing the first species to the edge of extinction. Well, I'm sorry to report that that was something my Dad heard on the radio and told us about later, so I don't know where to access further information. But new things are being discovered about genes and genetics, and I dare say that in a few years there'll probably be more new books out about new possiblities that need to be explored in the theory of evolution.
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11-09-2002, 05:01 AM | #430 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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It's okay, I was just curious about it because it seemed so unlikely.
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11-09-2002, 05:01 AM | #431 | |||
the Shrike
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Re: Evolution, fast/slow, and chance
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Please state these one or two inconsistencies. What time frame are you postulating for this faster evolution? Quote:
Regarding evolution; there are facts that simply can't be dismissed. To use an analogy, if a boat sinks in the middle of the ocean, and pieces of the wreckage are recovered, we know that a boat sank. We don't know, however, what caused the boat to sink. The same can be said for evolution. We have recovered bits and pieces of the fossil record - unfortunately it does not survive well - but we don't know the causal factors. Just because every step can not be explained in the evolutionary process, does not mean that it is totally in error. The same can be said for the timeframe of evolution, and ultimately of the Earth's age. The is enough evidence to break down what happened when, and how long it took for each process (approximately.) Obviously, with the very early fossil record, much of it is speculative, given the sheer age of the earth, and the fragility of the fossil record. However, I can say that if some new breakthrough is going to pop up to confuzzle everyone, it certainly won't be postulating a younger earth, but rather, a much much older one. Finally, I'm not sure what you're going on about regarding faster evolution. The rate of change in evolving organisms is not constant. Several factors have to be taken into consideration, ie speciation, competition, resources, etc. Some biological adaptations occur at a much faster rate than others. Quote:
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11-09-2002, 12:00 PM | #432 | ||
Elf Lord
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I'm personally a little surprised that you consider our current dating methods to be just as accurate as the fact that the world is round, but it's your choice how strong you think these methods are. I'm not postulating another time frame for the faster evolution. Unfortunately, I haven't studied the subject enough to do that kind of thing. However, two of the primary reasons that I am advocating it is because the possibility has lately been coming to scientific thought, as more knowledge is procured, and secondly, because the Bible also tends to advocate that more than a longer evolution. You might not take the Bible as a valid source of evidence, and I'm not using it as such. If it said nothing at all on the subject, then I'd let the matter be. But I tend to believe that Adam was the first man, and the faster evolution certainly implies that this could easily happen. How long the animals had been around before him, I'm not sure, but in the Bible it says that sin and death were brought to the world when Adam succumbed to temptation, and this would imply that none of the animals had died yet. Here you'll probably start laughing, but that is one of the reasons why I am attempting to cast doubt on the dating method for a millions of years evolution. But it really isn't my place to cast doubt on this for you. In years to come, we'll see where evolution goes, and if this other version might be adopted. Even the creation of Eve from Adam falls into the realm of definite possibility by scientific causes if you accept the faster evolution idea. Frogs, when under dire straights, have been known to change sexes to produce a female. The same sort of thing as that island scenario which I told you about. Species, in their genetics, have a strong ability to adapt. Evidence of this is visible all through creation, how in the desert, desert animals live, in the forest, forest animals live, in the swamp, swamp animals live, etc. Some species, once introduced to a difficult habitat, can even change themselves to adapt at a faster rate. In my most recent post, one of the larger reasons why I was showing the evidence that what I was suggesting could be is because of this: Quote:
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11-09-2002, 01:09 PM | #433 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There seems to be some confusion here about the fossil record. Most life on earth is made up of large organisms. Most of the world's life is made up of invertebrates. The vertebrate fossil record is irrevelent in dating the age of the earth, It's not like the fossil record is patchy here. Some huge rock formations are made of nothing but fossils. The isn't any gaps at this level. There are literally mountains of fossils in the record. Extending BoPs analogy to this record;it is like saying were found the entire fleet, all the crews, the place were they wrecked, a clock the broke witht he exact time frozen, and a calendar beside it with the days marked off.
The age of the earth, determined by stratigraphy alone, is still billions of years. Radiometric dating is only a secondary tool of convenience.
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11-09-2002, 01:15 PM | #434 | |
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-09-2002, 01:27 PM | #435 |
Elf Lord
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Cirdan, if there were as many fossils as you're saying, then I think I should bring up the point that many interim species that should exist between one species and another haven't shown up. How we date the exiting fossils, and the accuracy of that dating is what can be questioned, not the existence of fossils themselves. We are in agreement that there are fossils of species that are now extinct . But there are problems in that although one species from seventy five million years ago or some such number have many specimins to support their existence, there isn't much at all by way of species in between. This is one of those inconsistencies with the current representation of evolution that I was talking about.
I'm not arguing, when saying this, that there aren't any in between species at all. I know that there are some, like the Neanderthals. But when such discoveries do come, up, they are generally major discoveries. We have the evidence of many Neanderthals having existed at one time now, but we don't have a constant, slightly evolving chain of species. This is easily explained by a faster evolution, for by that theory a species would hop from one stage of development to another within a rather small space of time, and doesn't even need hundreds of in between species. Meanwhile, I say again that I wasn't arguing about the age of the Earth. It doesn't say anything about the age of the Earth in the Bible, anyway. How we date the fossils is what has room for error, as anything that we do in science does. |
11-09-2002, 01:42 PM | #436 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Geographic Distribution of animals indicates gradual development of life, becuase dissimilarities between faunas of different areas are largelt correlated with the length of time during which they have been isolated from one another. The peculiar mammalian fauna of Australia, for example, composed largely of marsupials, is evidently a result of Australia's separation from Asia in Cretaceous or early Cenozoic time. Evolution on a sub-specific level is indicated by tree snails of some tropical islands of the Pacific, in which trees grow only in the valleys; here, each valley has its own subspecies of snails, morphologically distinct from those of adjacent valleys, because mixing and interbreeding of the various populations is prevented by dry, treeless divides between the valleys. This situation is most readily explained be postulating descent of the various subspeicies from a single ancestral form which spread widely during a time of continuous forest. presumably, the subspecies evolved from local populations which became isolated by the development of arid treeless divides.
"Invertebrate Fossils" Moore, Lalicker, Fischer p. 30 I hope this helps you understand how species become separated, differentiate, and branch differently from their parent forms.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
11-09-2002, 02:00 PM | #437 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Desert animals live in deserts but you won't get a desert frog by dumping an ordinary one in the desert and telling it to adapt. Some species do adapt to their environment but some species deliberately chose their habitat because they had the advantage there. About the fossil record. The circumstances of fosilisation are pretty rare which means that only a small amount of the remains of creatures that once lived are found again in fossils. That's why you don't get complete evolutionary lines with all the intermediate species.
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11-09-2002, 02:00 PM | #438 | |||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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But when such discoveries do come, up, they are generally major discoveries. We have the evidence of many Neanderthals having existed at one time now, but we don't have a constant, slightly evolving chain of species. This is easily explained by a faster evolution, for by that theory a species would hop from one stage of development to another within a rather small space of time, and doesn't even need hundreds of in between species. [/b][/quote] That is nothing but silly. Neanderthalensis is a subspecies at best. There is so little variation that "fast evolution" is really just... evolution. Look at the apparent differences among races. This happened quickly. That doesn't mean it is even vaguely close to a significant change. We may look wildly different from one another but that means little. Quote:
The biblical age of the earth is easily derived by counting backwards the ages of the people in the hereditary line, as your father mentioned, to the day Adam and Eve were created. The earth is just a few days older. Of course if you want a non-literal translation then anything goes, as they say.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-09-2002, 04:00 PM | #439 | ||||
Elf Lord
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And there's something I'd liked explained to me: that we do see the same species found in different places more than once. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like a somewhat odd coincidence that we find the same species several times in different parts of the world, but don't find many of the intermediate species at all. Forgive me, Cirdan, but I saw little in your post in terms of factual evidence that contradicts what I said. All that did contradict was opinion and assumption. Quote:
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11-09-2002, 04:02 PM | #440 | ||
Elf Lord
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You might say that the Earth doesn't change that much, and when it does it's at an extremely slow rate because of the slowness of the continental divide, but the assumption that the continental divide was always as slow as it is now is erroneous. Simply because we observe, from our limited reference frame, that this is how fast it is moving now, doesn't imply that it has always been moving at that rate. And your earlier statement, by the way, that the continents would melt and life would cease to exist is entirely a matter of opinion. I'd like to see some strong evidence to back that up. In any case, I'm not going to get into an argument for an early continental divide. You'd all throw all the evidence of the current scientific theories, supported by the current scientific dating at me, and I'd have little to respond to it all with. But current scientific theories are still merely current scientific theories. They have a lot of knowledge in them, usually, and science is a very great thing that has done a lot for humanity. It has some errors for it, and simply because it hasn't found the evidence for the flood or an earlier continental break-up yet doesn't mean that it never will. The difficulty is, Cirdan, that in your arguments, you're assuming the accuracy of current scientific theories and dating methods, and you're saying that there isn't any chance that they're wrong. I'm believing in a universal truth, which is the Bible, and I'm assuming that there isn't any chance that that's wrong. That's an assumption I don't mean to prove the accuracy of to you, and the only way that you could find out whether it's accurate or not is to discover whether God exists or not, by seriously asking him, because you want to know. In numerous previous examples and in history, science has been shown to make mistakes, therefore I think your assumption as to the accuracy of current scientific theories is invalid. Mine is unusable, because the evidence to support it is all only evidence to me, not to the world. There is some evidence out to support a quick evolution; I've mentioned some of these evidences here, and you can read others by looking at what material is available. The original theory of a longer evolution taking place also has evidence, due to dating and other things. As I've said many times before, there is a lot about evolution that we still don't know, and science has a long way to go in exploring that field. Time and further discovery will show which is the more likely, so I'm simply going to wait on that. I'm not attempting to prove to you all which is the truth, for I don't know that for certain. I simply tend to believe in the faster evolution, partly because it supports the Bible, and partly because it explains some of the inconsistencies we see in the old model. Anyway, in this I'm not trying to prove to you that the dating's off, that the continental divide happened, that the flood happened, or that faster evolution happened. I'm simply establishing the possibility that these things happened, and I think the discussion about chance, scientific room for error, and design that we had before goes further in establishing that then any of the evidences that I have offered. Quote:
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