05-08-2006, 05:33 PM | #421 | |
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Now, to finish up the "obsessed" discussion ... *runs off to get reference - hang on ... *
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-08-2006, 05:53 PM | #422 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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To answer Gaffer's challenge ...
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And I'd object to anyone having sex with anyone around me, no matter what they put where. Quote:
And as to the "what goes where", well, as far as marriage, I don't care what goes where. But my opinion is that in the US, marriage should be between one man and one woman, of an age deemed suitable by the residents of each state, between a man and a woman that are not already married, and are not too closely related as determined by the residents of each state. This is entirely independent of what goes where. Another angle - EVERYONE (even you!) is concerned with what goes where - it's just where along the spectrum you draw the line as to when to object. If a man is in a room with your lovely young (theoretical) daughter and you walk in, and he's rapidly pulling up his pants, I can tell you you'd be concerned with what just went where. It ALL depends on each person's worldview, which shapes what they think is right and wrong. So I guess I'm not concerned with the specifics of what goes where - I'm just saying that IMO, sex is a wonderful thing that is designed to be between one man and one woman in marriage. Your opinion may differ, because your worldview is different. We both have to go with what we think is right, based on which worldview we think is right.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 05-08-2006 at 05:55 PM. |
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05-08-2006, 06:04 PM | #423 |
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And I disagree here exactly, Rian. I think marriage is for making a family. I think sex is for more than making babies. I think two people of the same gender can make a family. It's more difficult, but I have seen stronger ties between same gendered lovers than between some opposite gendered lovers. Ties that would make a family work! I think sex should be separated from marriage. It's the plumbing that makes babies, but marriage is far more than permission to use the plumbing. And whether they are married or not, people will use the plumbing. So let's keep them safe while using the plumbing, and get them to prevent the plumbing from making babies unless they are totally committed to a family, in which case, let's marry them together and get the whole community to support it, no matter how they are shaped. It's what's in their hearts that matters.
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05-08-2006, 06:23 PM | #424 | ||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-08-2006, 06:37 PM | #425 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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One other thing, Rian. When people disagree about a point like who is eligible for marriage and making a family, I prefer democracy as a process over following tradition. Just as you say that what is in the heart is not always what's right, what is done traditionally is not always what's right.
FWIW, when I said it's what in the heart that matters, I meant Love. I guess that wasn't obvious. |
05-08-2006, 07:13 PM | #426 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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OK, I'm caught up with other posts, so now I'll address yours, Maggie. Frankly, I've been avoiding it today because of your comment that I've already said some things that you found "incredibly offensive". I don't look forward to the possibility of offending you more, so I've been avoiding starting the post. But here I go now, and I hope you can continue to see that I don't mean to be offensive; I'm talking sincerely and lovingly about my opinions on this difficult and complex subject, just like you are.
(and btw, you've said some things to me that I've found "incredibly offensive", too! Did you realize that? For one example, your comment about challenging me to think was very offensive to me, because it implied to me that you don't think that I think, which is totally wrong! I've spent hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of thought on this issue. But IMO the heart behind it was not meaning to be offensive, so I let it go, although I challenged you back.) Quote:
Now I happen to think that homosexual acts are wrong, in the same way that I think some acts by hets (including myself) are wrong. But to me, each person, regardless of their sexual orientation or their orientation to other things, is wonderful and valuable and beautiful. I hope that is REALLY clear, because I really think that way. Now, to me, the discussion seems to hinge on the "rights" thing. First of all, unless you can point to a section in our government's documents (to keep it to the U.S. for sanity's sake) that specifically calls out rights for homosexuals to marry (and I mean specifically using the name "homosexual"), then you can't assume that they (or any other group, btw) has those rights. Right? SO, since I know you can't do this then we're now at ground zero as far as how a marriage should be defined. This is where people's opinions come in. And people's opinions are based on their worldview (i.e., what they think is reality). Here's mine: An amazing, powerful, loving God created this universe out of the abundance of who He is. Because of the high value He places on love, He created people with free will, because coerced love is valueless. That was one of the most amazing, wild, reckless things that has ever taken place, for to give people free will while desiring their love is opening up your heart for great sorrow and pain. But it also opens up the possibility of great joy. Personally, I don't think I could have taken that risk, but God is more than loving - He IS love - and love doesn't count the cost of loving, it just loves, full and free and without reserve.Here is what I think yours is (please correct me if I"m wrong): The world came into being through unguided processes. There is no instrinic authority. Therefore, it is perfectly valid for each person to decide what is right or wrong, based on what they think is right or wrong at the time. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with homosexual acts or homosexual marriage.NOW - given your worldview, your opinion about homosexual marriage makes sense (except don't stop there - why should ANYTHING be wrong if your worldview is right?). Given my worldview, my opinion about homosexual marriage makes sense. Do you agree? Quote:
1. You think that a woman and a woman should be able to marry, and a man and a man should be able to marry. Fine. Now what logical reason do you have for denying ANY sincere group their "right" to marry, or do you think ANY group should be able to marry? And if so, why keep age limits? Yes, it might be repugnant to you, but what LOGICAL reason do you have to say that a man shouldn't marry a little boy if they both want to? If you appeal to protection of the kid because he can't think well enough yet, then again, you're appealing to an absolute standard, and why should others LOGICALLY have to agree with your standard if there is no higher authority? 2. You seem to think that the definition of a family should be available for making up. Well, fine - I hearby declare that I think it should be one man and one woman until death do they part. Since it's open for definition, what's wrong with my definition? If yours is different, why is it any better (if it is?) If you think it's better, what standard are you judging it against? (for to be better, something must be closer to a standard than another thing). The trouble I have with your worldview is that it doesn't hold up logically, IMO. You're appealing to a common standard, which given your worldview, shouldn't exist. Now I think it DOES exist, but I think that that speaks against the validity of your worldview.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 05-08-2006 at 07:17 PM. |
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05-08-2006, 07:14 PM | #427 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 05-08-2006 at 07:16 PM. |
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05-08-2006, 07:23 PM | #428 | ||||||||||
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And I would point out that they are offered to homosexuals who are willing to commit to longterm (because as we all know, these days marriage ain't binding, regardless of the sexuality of the couple) Quote:
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In the second place, I don't think believe that right and wrong are defined by pleasure of any sort, whether physical, intellectual, or spiritual. I take "pleasure" to mean essentially what you mean by happiness; am I wrong? Quote:
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But anyway, as Rian pointed out, self-denial is very much a part of the Christian tradition. Christ denied himself in the highest way; "he emptied himself" of his divinity "taking on the conditions of a slave". For God to abase himself to become Man is the ultimate self-denial, I think. Of course, for non-Christians this isn't relavent, but for me, as a Christian and especially as a Catholic it is very much so. Quote:
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I very much appreciate, Marion, the way you are able to discuss this in such a calm and level-headed manner. Hopefully, this will be a fruitful discussion.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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05-08-2006, 07:54 PM | #429 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-08-2006, 09:07 PM | #430 | ||
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To respond to you, Rian:
I apologize for the offensively worded challenge, I tend to be rather harsh in my wording when I think it necessary, even towards friends. On to worldviews... Quote:
Firstly it would be helpful if you knew the basics of my background, as it makes it easier to understand where I'm coming from. I was raised as very liberal Irish-American Catholic. Now, I think spirituality is something best achieved without the interference and biases of organized religion. However, I do retain some things from my upbringing as a catholic, those being: -Forgiveness -Unconditional love for those I am close to -The ten commandments -'Love thy neighbor as you love thyself' -And the three basic prayers So here's what my worldview has come to after 19 years of learning, being confused, and hard thinking: Part One: 1) I believe that an ieffable something, to which for sake of convenience I continue to refer to as God, created the means and put in motion the evolution of the universe. 2) I believe that God is omnipotent, forgiving, has a sense of humor and good . 3) If God is omnipotent forgiving, has a sense of humor and good, and is our creator, then God would not have created anything that did not have potential for those qualities, especially good. 4) But because God allowed free will, that potential is not always reached. 5) Thus Everything can be either good or bad. Part Two: 1) Humans are only able to judge what is good from a human, subjective view. 2) What is good to us is therefore going to be what aids our survival, or gives us pleasure. 3) Strong relationships of any sort have the potential to do both. 4) If a strong relationship meets that potential, then it is good. Quote:
Such things would be incredibly difficult to prove as being true for a relationship involving more than two people or one mature and one immature person. My definition of a family would be a group of two or more people united by a network of strong, positive relationships such as I have described. I contend that this definition is (if not better) more practical because it is a much broader and includes more than the North American ideal, nuclear family, which tends to be more of a myth than an actuallity in the majority of cultures. Does that help what I'm saying make more sense?
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"Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet them that hang! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; Leave me my name!" - The Crucible "nolite hippopotamum vexare!" Last edited by Lady Marion Magdalena : 05-08-2006 at 09:32 PM. |
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05-08-2006, 09:30 PM | #431 | ||||||
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Your turn, Gwai:
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It's like the difference between telling an outright lie and telling a lie by omission. With the latter you can pretend to yourself that you aren't actually doing anything wrong, but in fact you really are. Quote:
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And since you invite the question... what do you define right and wrong by? And is it something that can be applied across cultures and religions? Quote:
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Fruitful discussions are excellent, and I also very much hope that this one will continue to be.
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"Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet them that hang! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; Leave me my name!" - The Crucible "nolite hippopotamum vexare!" |
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05-08-2006, 10:59 PM | #432 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Just a quick clarification question, because I only have a minute ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-09-2006, 09:31 AM | #433 | ||
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And the idea that we should define marriage like this is fascism-lite, IMO. Quote:
Sorry. What I meant to say was that they might, if it was LOGICAL, which "because God says so" isn't, IMHO. I think all was fine for a long long time when the "Christian ideal" of the nucelar family held sway. Now we realise that this doesn't fit many people, whether through women's rights, divorce, sexual orientation or indeed sexual behaviour. And we also realise, at a societal level, that these people should not be forced to fit into a role that does not fit them. Now the reality hits home that the orthodox view is no longer enshrined in our collective morality, and so it is up for grabs. For some reason, divorce and women's rights aren't considered fruitful grounds for debate and so the battle lines are drawn up along gay marriage. But the fact is that people are both adaptable and rational. Nowadays, in this country anyway, so many more people have direct contact with people who are openly gay that these attitudes are eroding. They see that GLB people are just as capable of being happy and productive, and of having long-term, successful relationships. Increasingly, it will become harder and harder to simultaneously believe that their partnerships are inherently worth less than a straight couple's. So, the good news is that I don't think we can turn back the clock on this one. I can understand how it is a challenge for the Church, but given the moral gymnastics performed in justification of stuff like greed and wars, I don't see it as being beyond the bounds of probability that a way could be found to make peace with the issue. I certainly don't think that defining marriage in religious terms is going to work. |
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05-09-2006, 11:53 AM | #434 | |
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05-09-2006, 12:38 PM | #435 |
Elf Lord
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Because some of them have already managed to make that peace.
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05-09-2006, 01:06 PM | #436 |
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Amen to that!
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05-09-2006, 02:22 PM | #437 | |
Elf Lord
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"Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet them that hang! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; Leave me my name!" - The Crucible "nolite hippopotamum vexare!" |
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05-09-2006, 04:15 PM | #438 | |||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I wouldn't say "it's OK to be gay, just don't act on it". I think I would say something more like "Some people have homosexual desires, and IMO acting on those desires is wrong. And as with any desire for something wrong (like some desires I have), with God's grace and help it can be changed." Quote:
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You know, logic is important to me, and if a worldview and/or an opinion can't stand up to it, then IMO it's faulty, so that's why I bring it up "again". If one's opinion is that marriage can be defined however a person thinks is right, then marriage to a marrow is certainly a logical option, and to have that a logical option should, IMO, make the person holding that opinion spend some serious time thinking about the validity of the worldview. Quote:
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Well, if traditional marriage was only valid because it was "enshrined in our collective morality", that's a lousy reason for it to be valid. That's not the reason that I think it's valid. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 05-09-2006 at 04:19 PM. |
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05-09-2006, 04:23 PM | #439 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Do you think the intangible/unproven thing is actually a part of reality (i.e., it actually exists in reality, although intangibly to you at least for now), or is it merely something in the imagination? If it is entirely intangible, how can you discover it? Do you think the peace comes about because that thing is reality, and if so, what aspect of that thing has the capability to bring peace?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-09-2006, 04:23 PM | #440 | |
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How is he forcing you to do anything? Is he saying you should only be allowed to marry a woman like you are saying gays should only be allowed to marry people of the opposite sex? That would be forcing his opinion on you. But hes fine with you marrying a man or a woman. He is not attempting to control another person's freedom simply because of how he views those people. He is saying let them do what they want to do in this regard. There is no justifiable reason to bar them from marrying. Yet you want to. Thats the facist aspect.
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