12-17-2003, 12:34 PM | #421 | ||
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I'm glad that your church ordains women. I think it is a step in the right direction. |
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12-17-2003, 12:36 PM | #422 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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Wow Guillaume you are really knowledgable in Catholic theology! I myself hope to go back to school in a few years and get a degree in theology (for my own personal fulfillment...not that I can do much else with it except back up my beliefs! )
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12-17-2003, 12:39 PM | #423 |
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thanks for clearing that up before me Ruinel... you make good points as well... and yes Valandil, there may be some validity in a biblical perspective, and this is exactly why i am against this persective... at least the unswerving "this is the absolute truth" POV...
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12-17-2003, 12:40 PM | #424 | |
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Last edited by Arien the Maia : 12-17-2003 at 12:45 PM. |
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12-17-2003, 12:52 PM | #425 |
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Hmmmm... now we're touching on some of the dividing lines between Catholicism and most Protestants: Transubstantiation and the Immaculate Conception...
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12-17-2003, 01:03 PM | #426 | |
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GOD: "She said 'no'?!! come again?" GABRIEL: "yes sir, she said 'no'. She didn't want to risk getting stoned to death. You know how those humans are." GOD: "did you use my line? You know: 'Greetings, favored one. The lord is with thee.' Did you do that?" GABRIEL: "yeah... she's a no go on the pregancy thing." GOD: "*sigh* Ok... go see Susan then." *Gabriel flies off to Susan* GABRIEL: "Greetings, favored one. The lord is with thee." the virgin SUSAN: *blinks* eh? GABRIEL: "Do not be afraid, Mar..Susan, for you have found favor with God...." |
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12-17-2003, 01:06 PM | #427 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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No; no-one said that one could not lead a congregation; he specifically said "Why should a woman not in this sense represent God? Certainly not because she is necessarily, or even probably, less holy or less charitable or stupider than a man. In that sense she may be as "God-like" as a man; and a given women much more so than a given man." But there is something else, something more to the priesthood than that sort of thing; that is, the sacramental side of it. IMO, it is the male's counterpart to birth. By birth does a woman bring forth physical children; by priesthood does a man bring forth spiritual children. Firstly, the bible was written in a time in which women were generally chattel, they could own no property, make no decision on their own, and followed orders of their husbands or fathers or even brothers (whoever was the head male of the family she belonged to). Quote:
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12-17-2003, 01:11 PM | #428 | |
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12-17-2003, 01:14 PM | #429 | ||
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Trust me when I say, that I bet any woman would give a man the chance to bear physical children. Quote:
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12-17-2003, 01:21 PM | #430 | |
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On a different tack... and with Christmas only 8 days away, I thought this would be an appropriate thread to share what I received in an email today:
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12-17-2003, 01:26 PM | #431 | |||||
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As for the Immaculate Conception; if you could've made your mother perfect, wouldn't you?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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12-17-2003, 01:43 PM | #432 | |
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The issue I have with this belief about Mary is just that: it almost seems like someday, someone was just thinking about it too much. I know of no scriptural justification for the Immaculate Conception (is there one?). It seems as though someone decided that God could not send His Son to be born into mankind unless the sinful nature was absent (almost a gnostic notion itself, perhaps? )... but I say, "Why not?" ... and doesn't it make the Redemption of mankind all the more glorious? Re: Priests - we Protestants generally don't even use the term (perhaps Anglicans and some others do, I don't know...). It's not seen in the New Testament Church. Martin Luther expressed the notion of "priesthood of all believers" - that we ALL have access to God (as a priest serves an intercessory role between God and mankind). Hebrews tells us that Jesus is our 'Great High Priest'. |
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12-17-2003, 01:47 PM | #433 | ||
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Ordination
I’m happy you brought up the following, Ru:
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However, I do agree with Lewis when he wrote: “The innovators are really implying that sex is something superficial, irrelevant to the spiritual life.” In order to be honest about ourselves and the world we live in, we have to be willing to recognize and appreciate real differences in reality. Ruinel has picked up on something that I consider just as erroneous in Lewis’ position. He seems to be saying that women are somehow inferior to men in certain professions, especially when he wrote: “To say that men and women are equally eligible for a certain profession is to say that for the purposes of that profession their sex is irrelevant.” I disagree with this statement, and I think given some further reflection, Lewis may well have retracted this. From my Catholic perspective, we aren’t talking about a profession when we say the priesthood is limited to men only. There is no profession that I can think of for which a woman would not be qualified based solely on the fact that she is a woman. As I’ve said though, ordination is not the hiring of an administrator, leader of a congregation, or a preacher. The priesthood is not a profession, it is a sacrament. As a sacrament, ordination must conform to both the form and species of the sacrament. As far as administration of the Church, preaching, leading a congregation in prayer or liturgy, representing God (something that everyone is called to do, anyway), etc. are concerned, any woman, given the proper training, can be more than qualified. The laity, which women a central and important role therein, have always been instrumental in the administration, protection, and the evangelical mission of the Church. Thankfully women have always been apart of all these aspects, and their role continues to grow in the modern Church. The Church would not exist without the unique experiences of women throughout her history. Women add an important element that men can not, because, simply, they are men. However, as far as being a sacrament, in specific, acting in persona Christi--the sacramental presence of Christ in His priests--the Church is bound to follow the stipulations set out by Jesus, Himself concerning form and species. This, I’m sure, was not intended by Jesus to limit the voice of women in His Church. Regards, Dave Aside: Quote:
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12-17-2003, 01:48 PM | #434 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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also another note on Mary...she was taken up body and soul into Heaven right after she died to reign as Queen of Heaven....I think that's an honor as well...again this is according to Catholic doctrine...I don't think that Protestants accept the Assumption |
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12-17-2003, 01:52 PM | #435 |
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PS - not at all intending to start a Catholic-Protestant war... (we've had enough of those... seems the fiercest fighting is often between those who are in closest agreement - and just dispute on a few minor points! )
I did however, want to make sure everyone is aware that not all Catholic teachings are adhered to by Protestants - and vice-versa. There's also a wide range of Protestant beliefs, let me tell ya! |
12-17-2003, 02:45 PM | #436 | ||||
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Re: Ordination
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This is an interesting read... http://www.womenpriests.org/theology/rossi1.htm Quote:
passages such as the following lead me to believe such things... Quote:
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12-17-2003, 04:01 PM | #437 | ||
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Its easy to pick and choose from the bible to support just about any position, Ruinel. Allow me to place Saint Paul’s words in context. The rest of the passage from Ephesians reads thus: Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her [in other words, He died for the Church] to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present himself to the church in slendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. So also husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. Its clear that Saint Paul puts a much greater burden on the husband, who must go so far as to die for his wife, than he places on the wife. What’s more, the submission he speaks of is the same submission that is to be practiced by all Christians in regards to God. This submission is a paradox for Saint Paul. Its a happy slavery, for in the Christian’s commitment to God, the Christian finds her greatest freedom--the fulfillment of human nature: For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness. But what profit did you get then from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been freed from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefits that you have leads to sanctification, and its end is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 6:20-23) There is nothing subordinating in Christian submission. Christian submission is a humility that leads to eternal life and ultimate human freedom. Saint Paul’s instructions for married people is analogous with the Church’s relationship with the Godhead--it is both in submission to God, and in sharing the sacrifice of Calvary with Jesus.
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan Last edited by Guillaume le Maréchal : 12-17-2003 at 04:03 PM. |
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12-17-2003, 04:17 PM | #438 | ||
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Re: Re: Ordination
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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12-17-2003, 04:21 PM | #439 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I was going to start my answer to Artanis about the range of beliefs on different topics in Christianity in this thread, but since this topic is going strong, I think I'll put it over in the Offshoot thread, just to keep things clearer. I hope you guys can join in over there
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-17-2003 at 04:22 PM. |
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12-18-2003, 10:40 AM | #440 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Secondly, there is actually Scriptural justification. In the first place, a short writing on the phrase "full of grace" or "highly favoured" "It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived "by the power of the Holy Spirit," in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings. When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference can be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. This word represents the proper name of the person being addressed by the angel, and it therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary. The traditional translation, "full of grace," is more accurate than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter"). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates a perfection of grace that is both intensive and extensive. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit, and was only as "full" or strong or complete as possible at any given time, but it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence to have been called "full of grace."
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