03-19-2005, 09:20 PM | #421 | |
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Jonathan, are you going to post something in your area? If not, I'll get something together by Monday to restart the discussion
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-19-2005, 09:26 PM | #422 | |||||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-19-2005, 09:28 PM | #423 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-19-2005, 09:34 PM | #424 |
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Could we please just discuss the topic? Many people are interested in discussing it, and many people are willing to hear from scientists, regardless of their background. JD, if you, personally, aren't comfortable accepting the scientific opinion of a degree-holding scientist who is a creationist, then feel free to say so, but please don't hinder others who DO want to hear scientific info from scientists of all backgrounds
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-19-2005, 09:35 PM | #425 | |
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03-19-2005, 09:39 PM | #426 | |
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03-20-2005, 06:08 AM | #427 | |
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A true SCIENTIFIC method does not look for evidence but for the denting of evidence. I think that nowadays Popper's theory of falsability is still the most accepted episthemology, so it doesn't really matter if God's involved or if an unknown natural force is involved: all that SCIENTIST can assure is what's not in the begining of the universe. It's true, however that most scientists (and Popper would avail it) will not even consider the possibility of God because, since they consider that God cannot be experimentally falsable, they'll say it (He) falls out of the scientific ground. The only little problem with this is that what can be falsable and what not is not a scientific question
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03-20-2005, 10:29 AM | #428 |
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The thing is that we are discussing evidence. Evidence is based on facts. If evidence exits for creationism through science, then it must be based on solid scientific fact finding. You can not use religion or the bible or god to back up scientific evidence on creationism, because there is no evidence to back up your back up.
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03-20-2005, 11:40 AM | #429 | |
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03-20-2005, 12:06 PM | #430 | ||
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Evidence for and against creationism and evolution are like, um... Sigfried and Roy . To have two separate threads doesn't make sense and is stupid IMO. Quote:
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03-20-2005, 12:13 PM | #431 | |
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03-20-2005, 02:56 PM | #432 | |||
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Jonathan had posted a link http://www.ebonmusings.org/evolution/index.html on the evolution page which explains very well my position on creationism and some of the things Rian is stating and explains much of what I have been trying to narrow down with Rian....
Explain the scientific evidence without resorting to debunking evolution. Quote:
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03-21-2005, 07:43 AM | #433 | |
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The only difference between tour post andmine is that I also comment about the validity of the definition of science: it's validity resides in that's commonly accepted but not in SCIENTIFIC evidence. Science depends on a sort of democratic consensus (about its philosophical basis) among the scientists. ... but it cannot be scientifically proved
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03-21-2005, 12:08 PM | #434 | ||
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03-21-2005, 01:38 PM | #435 |
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I'm back from a nice, busy weekend, and I'll start to (re)build my case now on why I think the evidence which can be evaluated scientifically supports creationism more than evolution.
First of all, I'll deal with some of the higher-level issues involved, which IMO will make the discussion move along better, because we'll be on the same page; or if we aren't, then at least we'll all know what page we're all on. Sir Francis Bacon, considered the founder of the scientific method, gave a pretty straightforward definition of science : observation --> hypothesis --> test hypothesis by experiment --> proof/disproof --> knowledge. And this is still how scientists operate today, as well they should. Now of course this view depends upon some MAJOR philosophical assumptions, such as the law of non-contradiction, the basic reliability of our senses, and the law of causality. All of these must be accepted by faith,(i.e., they cannot be "proven in a lab") and yet science cannot operate without their acceptance. I imagine most of you guys are aware of the works of Hume, Kant, Aristotle and others in these areas. I'll give a brief definition of these things for those who are not familiar with them. I imagine most people would say these things are true, but they might not be familiar with the technical names for these concepts, so I'll briefly explain them. 1. The law of non-contradiction: The law of non-contradiction is basically this: "A cannot be A and non-A at the same time and in the same sense or relationship." Or in the words of Aristotle, it is "impossible that contrary attributes should belong at the same time to the same subject." This may sound simple and obvious, but IMO it should be mentioned, because this is a philosophical law that is one of the most important foundations of science. IOW, one can't say, "This magnet attracts the paper clip, and it doesn't attract the paper clip." This sounds silly, but it is really important, because we often base conclusions on eliminating possibilities. Again, this is a philosophical foundation of science. If we don't take this on faith, then there is no science, because one can't form conclusions without using this law. 2. The basic reliability of our senses: Yes, our senses have limitations. Yes, our senses can mislead us. But this law states that our senses are basically reliable. And science is nonsense without this law, for how can we observe things and draw conclusions from them if our senses aren't reliable? This law is basically just to get rid of the useless claim of, "yes, the evidence seems to point to that very strongly, but what if our senses are misleading us?", which only seems to be said when a person is losing an argument If our senses cannot be basically relied upon, why even bother to do a scientific experiment? So this is another foundational philosophical aspect of science. 3. The law of causality: This law is basically, "Every effect must have a cause." Note that it's not every "thing"; it's every "effect". This is a "formal" or "analytical" truth. IOW, it's true by definition, because the very definition of an effect includes that it is the result of some cause. (Another example of a formal truth would be "all bachelors are unmarried men." The definition of "bachelor" includes the fact that they are unmarried, so this statement is analyticaly, or formally, true, or is true by definition.) Again, this may sound like an obvious truth, but it's very important to recognize, IMO, for science works by analyzing effects. And this is a third critical foundation of science that is philosophical; and science cannot operate without this law. SO - there's some info to re-start the discussion on creationism. Do you guys all agree that these 3 things are true, and that science cannot operate without them? Or do you disagree, and if so, why? refpost
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-21-2005, 02:06 PM | #436 | |
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03-21-2005, 02:41 PM | #437 | |
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03-21-2005, 02:47 PM | #438 |
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But Rexy, you're not looking at the rest of the sentence, which is critical: "...and in the same sense or relationship." That makes all the difference. Given that part of the sentence, I don't see how your example works.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-21-2005, 03:09 PM | #439 | |
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I have no authority at Entmoot, besides the semi-kindof-authority of a thread starter (which is pretty universally acknowledged here). I'm really interested in discussing these topics, and so are many others, and we were talking about them intelligently and considerately ... and then some things changed and the thread got temporarily shut down. So ALL I was trying to do was express some preferences and make some requests (as thread starters do all the time!) to hopefully increase the chances of keeping the thread open and letting the Mooters enjoy it
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-21-2005, 03:26 PM | #440 | |
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Oh and I don't plan on going anywhere from this thread. I think you beat around the bush too much and don't give straight forward answers on the evidence of CREATIONISM without bringing evolution in on it. If I see you continue to try to support creationism by criticizing evolution - I will call you on it (since no one else seems to do it).
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