Why you believe what you believe I

[Rían]

Because you said it was unpleasant?!?!

[Finrod Felagund]

[DELETED...stupid post] ..........

[Lizra]

I can handle it.

[inked]

Thanks for the time and insight Nolendil. You did a good job handling the questions. One of the Proverbs says (paraphrasing) as iron sharpens iron, so are good friends. As I understand certain aspects of Hinduism better thanks to your answers, so you have an increased awareness of necessary differentiations in considering religions. Iron has sharpened iron!

Who's up next?

[BeardofPants]

Thanks for posting up your POVs Dylan; it's always good to see another approach to this lil' problem called life.

[Lizra]

How about Rian!!

[Ñólendil]

This is NOT a test - I think you're misunderstanding me. As far as I'm concerned, you're my friend, no matter what you believe. I just wanted to get deeply into your (or whoever is on the hot seat) beliefs and think about them. This is NOT intended to be a light, chatty thread; this thread is meant to be a forum for people to really bring things out and think things thru and examine and re-examine and look at things from different angles and in different lights, in the light of questions from other people. And ONLY - repeat ONLY - consideration and kindness and respect for others allowed. But one can have consideration and kindness and respect while saying "well, what about this aspect? I don't understand it, and to me, it seems contradictory", and things like that.

I understand that Rian, and I don't think you've done anything wrong. Sometimes I am merely saddened by other's view of my religion, of their view of other religions in general. I am saddened that you could suppose Hinduism does not encourage such things as charity. In my own biased way, it strikes me as something that merely comes out of a worldview which has no room for other worldviews.

See, I know that you are compassionate; what I don't know is if your compassion has increased because of what Hinduism teaches, and I'm trying to find out.

But why?

I think it's been constructive, and I hope that thinking back on it, you'll think it was, too. I've learned some things. For example, I didn't know that some Hindus (oh rats, what was the term? Avedentist? ) thought that one's personhood, for lack of a better term, was NOT lost into reality.

Dvaita Vedantists is the term you are looking for. "Dvaita" means "dual".

But I don't see anything wrong with a person thinking they're right - after all, Lizra thinks she's right that there's no God, or else she wouldn't be an atheist, right? She thinks I'm totally wrong, and has told me so many times, but I don't blame her, and I CERTAINLY don't look down on her - if she thinks she's right, then she must think I'm wrong - so what? Personally, I believe that the Christian worldview is the correct description of actual reality. It's no kudos to me that I believe it. People have beliefs because they think they're right. I don't have any beliefs that I think are wrong - how could I? And how could you?

What I was getting at is that I don't think it is safe to say that everyone else is wrong. And I mean that word "safe". I don't mind questions about Hinduism, designed to learn more. I also don't mind points of difference, and people trying to understand better, and point out places where there seems to be a problem. But what exactly is the point, if the only worthwhile information I can give is something that is in common with Christianity?

To me, a friend is a friend, regardless of their beliefs. I hope you feel that we're still friends, Falmon of the Waves.

I'm not huffing and puffing, and taking my ball home, Rian.

I have merely realized that I don't like these kinds of environments--religious or belief-oriented topics on online message boards. It is better for me to discuss such things in a classroom, or some place where it is more (to me) about learning. Here, and I mean no disrespect to anyone here, I just get down right depressed. I think I am talking because I want to get my point across, and everyone else is doing the same thing. There is no room given by anyone, including myself, to change. And it shouldn't even be an option, it should be about, I think, learning more. What has made me stop is when I realized you think Hinduism might possibly suggest we tell the hungry that their hunger is not real, because of other suggestions you have gotten from the caste system. It was an honest question, but it makes me sad. I feel like you have no confidence in any non-Christian ideals.

[Lizra]

Well said.....you've come close to voicing the subtle frustration I sometimes feel when posting with Rian. I feel closeness to her as a friend, but at the same time I feel like I am always on the defensive because she has this underlying theme to some of her posts that "my religion is the one true religion". Of course you think that Rian...but it puts people on the defensive, and some of us deal with that by fighting back, some by walking away.....

I like the title of this thread....tho I do not care much for the "being grilled" part. Maybe I shouldn't participate if that is the true purpose. Is this thread really "DEFEND why you believe what you believe"? (I am saying this to clarify, not to fight or insult )

[Nurvingiel]

I didn't feel like I was being grilled. Where did we go wrong?

I blame Moloch. *shakes fist* Curse you Moloch!

[Lizra]

Yeah...Who invited that stupid Moloch! I only felt "grilling" a bit....and I don't want to make a big deal of it, I CAN handle it! Could just be different personalities and posting styles.....I'll put another *skin toughening session" on today's list....

[Nurvingiel]

You need some aloe vera my friend! Who wants to go? I think we should save Rian for later.

That came off really wrong... I mean, Rian should go later. IMHO.

[EarthBound]

The charged +/- condition is: to hold a point of view is to keep "a" perspective which precludes acceptence of other views. The position to hold "all" views equally plausable is in itself a one-position view, because it precludes that all views are wrong in their own singlarity of perspective.

Since commitment to any or all of potential views is personal, the best, the most graciouis, the greatest possible gift to each other (of vastly different views) is "RESPECT". And I've seen mountains of it here on this thread of sharing and knowledge. (never begin a sentence with And)

Cheers to all of you who have shared so much. Many of us have just sat back and read along, learning along the way.......

[inked]

Perhaps I am alone in this perception but I always understood the intent of the thread to be apologetic for one's beliefs ( as in apologia, giving reasons for or a defense of one's position in an affirmative mode, NOT as in an apology for a social gaffe or spilling on your hostess' carpet ). AND, as beautifully stated and impeccable right as my position is (else why would I hold it ), the process is actually more beneficial for the one making the apology than the hearers, though it may benefit the hearers as well. So questioning the apologist is not attacking, in my understanding, but attempting to understand. Of course, it is frustrating when the clarity of one's beliefs articulated in the most engaging fashion fails to enthrall into similar belief one's listeners but paying attention to their viewpoints and questions and attempting to answer them is the highest respect an apologist can pay the questioner. Paying attention enough to actually have questions is the highest respect a listerner can give an apologist.

This thread has RESPECT in ENORMOUS QUANTITITES. But it remains an apologia thread.

[Ñólendil]

I certainly do agree that there is a lot of respect on this thread, from Rian and everyone else. My point of contention is not one anyone can help.

[Rían]

Just a reminder - from the first post on this thread:

SO - what I was thinking of was that different people can take turns in the "hot seat" and field questions from others on their general worldview beliefs, and their reasons behind holding those beliefs, and what sub-beliefs can be derived from their worldview beliefs, and so on. I'd like this to be really vigorous, no-holds-barred discussion, but polite and considerate. We've tackled some hot issues before in this manner, so it can be done! ANY question is valid, as long as it's framed in a considerate way.

Mainly what I'm thinking about are what I would call, I guess, "top-level" worldview beliefs, which would be things like Christianity, Buddhism (I'm hoping to lure Ñólendil here ), atheism, agnosticism, and things like that, because from what I can tell, our beliefs on most issues are based on what worldview belief we hold. So I would like to discuss why people hold these top-level worldview beliefs.

Anyone interested? I'll volunteer to go first, if no one else wants to. I never am bothered by sincere questions, and I'll tackle any question anyone wants to throw at me, and give it an honest answer (and BTW, "I don't know" is certainly a valid answer, if it's true). And I'm hoping others will do the same. (Altho I would also like to say that people are free to just ask questions and not answer them if they don't want to, but I'm hoping for lots of volunteers to sit in the hot seat).

EDIT - one more note - I do NOT want this to be some silly debate - I hate the idea of debate for the sake of debating! I would like this to be a really open, truthful discussion, with the intent of finding things out and exploring thoughts and ideas and being willing to be totally openminded and honest and have your own worldview challenged and examined by others and being able to explain your own worldview. That's how I'm gonna handle it, and I hope everyone else will, too

So yes, inked, you're right - except I would add that it's an apologetics thread among friends and fellow Tolkien lovers and that the friendships are more important than the discussion.

Originally Posted by inked

...the process is actually more beneficial for the one making the apology than the hearers, though it may benefit the hearers as well.

Yes, very much so. It really makes you think thru your beliefs from POVs that you haven't thought about before.

Paying attention enough to actually have questions is the highest respect a listerner can give an apologist.

Yes, I agree with this, too.

This thread has RESPECT in ENORMOUS QUANTITITES.

I'm glad you can see that. I intend for it to remain that way. I would also like enormous quantities of humor and love

(BTW, I like your Winnie-the-Pooh-like spelling of "quantities"! )

[Rían]

Originally Posted by EarthBound

The charged +/- condition is: to hold a point of view is to keep "a" perspective which precludes acceptence of other views. The position to hold "all" views equally plausable is in itself a one-position view, because it precludes that all views are wrong in their own singlarity of perspective.

Absolutely - well put, EB!

Since commitment to any or all of potential views is personal, the best, the most graciouis, the greatest possible gift to each other (of vastly different views) is "RESPECT".

Double absolutely

And I've seen mountains of it here on this thread of sharing and knowledge.

Yay!

(never begin a sentence with And)

Except on any day ending with "-day"

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Who wants to go? I think we should save Rian for later.

Hee hee!!
*has imagines of the spiders poking Bombur*


Hey, Finrod, you mentioned that you wanted to go - would you like to be next? (But if you go, you gotta show up more! How's your concert schedule?)



..

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

I understand that Rian, and I don't think you've done anything wrong. Sometimes I am merely saddened by other's view of my religion, of their view of other religions in general. I am saddened that you could suppose Hinduism does not encourage such things as charity. In my own biased way, it strikes me as something that merely comes out of a worldview which has no room for other worldviews.

No, it's just that I'm unaware of the vast majority of Hindu literature, and I see India and its caste system and the suffering there, and altho it's a hard question, I think it's a valid one ...

See, worldviews like Christian Science say that illness is an illusion. That's what I meant. I should have worded it with more consideration and thought and explanation - I'll keep working at how I word things

But why?

Because I want to see what effects different worldviews have on people. To me, a worldview that promotes, for example, active charitable works is a good one and one that I would want to look into more. And it's not simply a matter of "promoting", either - a religion can "promote" something and its followers can ignore it - I'm looking for actual heart changes for the better as a result of a worldview.

Dvaita Vedantists is the term you are looking for. "Dvaita" means "dual".

Thank you
That reminds me, speaking of your translation - I had a Hindu friend at work and I was talking about Kipling's "The Jungle Books" and mentioned Baghera, and he said that was the Hindu word for "panther". And I named a few other names, like Hathi, and they were all the word for that animal And now Beren300 said that "Aslan" was Turkish for "lion" - interesting, isn't it?

What I was getting at is that I don't think it is safe to say that everyone else is wrong. And I mean that word "safe". I don't mind questions about Hinduism, designed to learn more. I also don't mind points of difference, and people trying to understand better, and point out places where there seems to be a problem. But what exactly is the point, if the only worthwhile information I can give is something that is in common with Christianity?

Well, I guess I'll just answer this by saying what I said in the first post, which I requoted above and saying I just think it's valuable to think about these things, and to question these things, and to be questioned on these things. It's not a point of "worthwhile" to me - it's not like I'm giving points every time you "score" a right answer that matches Christianity. I have more respect for a Hindu that can intelligently and thoughtfully discuss his beliefs than a Christian that can do neither. It's just ... I don't know ... I think that life is worth thinking about. Life is very precious, IMO.

I'm not huffing and puffing, and taking my ball home, Rian.

(I thought you were going to say "and blowing the house down"! )

I have merely realized that I don't like these kinds of environments--religious or belief-oriented topics on online message boards. It is better for me to discuss such things in a classroom, or some place where it is more (to me) about learning. Here, and I mean no disrespect to anyone here, I just get down right depressed. I think I am talking because I want to get my point across, and everyone else is doing the same thing. There is no room given by anyone, including myself, to change. And it shouldn't even be an option, it should be about, I think, learning more. What has made me stop is when I realized you think Hinduism might possibly suggest we tell the hungry that their hunger is not real, because of other suggestions you have gotten from the caste system. It was an honest question, but it makes me sad. I feel like you have no confidence in any non-Christian ideals.

I hope you'll stay around - you have very good questions (and I love your sense of humor, too!) I'm glad you could see it was an honest question, and I'm VERY glad you're telling me these things - I really need to be more careful how I word things, and not let my desire to know things outrun my desire to love others. I just think it's good to hear questions from others that make you think - I know I heard one of the best questions I've heard in my life from MasterMothra about a year and a half ago. I've thought about it for a year now (obviously not full time! It's a back-burner type of question) and I'm SO glad he asked it. It's made me re-evaluate a lot of things. And THAT is valuable, IMO.

[BeardofPants]

I'll go if there's no-one else... 'sides, time to swing back to an atheist, huh?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lizra

Well said.....you've come close to voicing the subtle frustration I sometimes feel when posting with Rian. I feel closeness to her as a friend, but at the same time I feel like I am always on the defensive because she has this underlying theme to some of her posts that "my religion is the one true religion". Of course you think that Rian...but it puts people on the defensive, and some of us deal with that by fighting back, some by walking away.....

You sweetheart, you! *sends Lizra a big virtual kiss*

You silly dear, how many times have you told me that Christians are totally wrong and deluded, altho you envy me for my potlucks! You think atheists have got it right, and have let me know in no uncertain terms! (altho also in loving terms )

But again, thank you for telling me, and I'm obviously letting my desire for knowledge run ahead of my love for people, since you feel the urge to punch me or run away screaming. I need to watch that bugger!

(BTW, you should have seen the potluck we had at our annual beach camping trip!! 60 of us - the table was filled with goodies! And one new camping family we invited - she brought Filipino eggrolls!!! She's gonna be first on my list now! )

I like the title of this thread....tho I do not care much for the "being grilled" part. Maybe I shouldn't participate if that is the true purpose. Is this thread really "DEFEND why you believe what you believe"? (I am saying this to clarify, not to fight or insult )

Please just re-read the first post - I don't think "defend" quite describes what I want in this thread