Discussion Thread Number 3 Of Wraiths-Kings-Friends-Rings Campaign

[Rían]

The few references in HoME about it seem to indicate that; even that the "sound" of it was different, and "Eärendil" had odd-sounding elements in it that were thought to come from the language of Gondolin.


EDIT - (more info) - Of course Tolkien, as always, has MANY different versions of which language influenced which, and the language of Gondolin definitely carried on and influenced the language of the elves at Sirion, but I'm having my elves speak the most ancient form, which he calls "Gondolic".

It's not like it's totally foreign to Quenya, but I think spoken rapidly by people fluent in the language, it would be difficult to pick up anything that was said. Maybe something how my husband, who is fluent in Spanish as well as English (his native tongue), can sometimes get a general sense of what a person says in Portuguese. But for the purposes of this rpg, I'd like it to be accepted that what they say in Gondolic is NOT understood, please

Guys - I added some more to my post #471 - it seemed like Arastud jumped to the conclusion that something was wrong too fast - I made him say something like "are you sure she's not just in town getting supplies?". I think it's better now - let me know if that's ok with you guys.

[Rían]

(note - be sure to read my edited post above this one - I should have just made a new post!)

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

But for the purposes of this rpg, I'd like it to be accepted that what they say in Gondolic is NOT understood, please

OK with me. I can't respond for the others though.

Ahh, and certainly THANX for the info. I never was interested in Elven languages, so it sounds new to me.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Guys - I added some more to my post #471 - it seemed like Arastud jumped to the conclusion that something was wrong too fast - I made him say something like "are you sure she's not just in town getting supplies?". I think it's better now - let me know if that's ok with you guys.

OK also. I believe Zimra will just wait for her to return all day, and perhaps, she will go check with their relatives in Tharbad suburbs, and only in the evening, she will alert the watch. I hope, our Barliman will still be able to put two and two together.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Gordis

OK with me. I can't respond for the others though.

Ahh, and certainly THANX for the info. I never was interested in Elven languages, so it sounds new to me.

That little bit about the odd-sounding elements in "Eärendil" was one of the things that got me first interested in Gondolin. I love languages!

OK also. I believe Zimra will just wait for her to return all day, and perhaps, she will go check with their relatives in Tharbad suburbs, and only in the evening, she will alert the watch. I hope, our Barliman will still be able to put two and two together.

Sounds good - I was wondering when they would start looking for her. I tried to play down the concern so they wouldn't go running off right away to look for her. Maybe I'll even add one more edit in to emphasize that.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

OK - a few things:

* BB - will the guard discover the identity of the crazy girl who flung herself off the bridge? Will they report it to her masters at Orrodel?
* BB - did you say Commerce is not until Tuesday? If Monday - maybe guard duties will keep Bumble from being punctual.

i am sure once dwimmerbusy has attended to her, if he does not recognise her he'll call for the watch to assist in indentification, after that they will attempt to contact her family ...

yeah, i already posted commerce begins tuesday, well spotted! shall we say 3pm?

it'll just be an introductory meet and greet and short welcome / course outline for starters.


blimey what a kerfluffle over so little!

my only point was to Gor: that if khamul /TD went that way with his character, then the captain would surely have to respond or look weak, his leadership mocked and challenged.

as i see it TD has been playing khamul very well indeed , but his actions in this rpg have certainly been not been calmly caculating or oerly surreptisous, rather evil, bloodthirsty and rarely strategic or inspiring any calmness amongst his fellow nazgul (quite the reverse), nor those of a man following orders to NOT draw any attention to himself or his colleagues....

having the lady of nin in eliph, plus Rian, no matter her position, still seen both seen dancing with warmly talking with the king last night, in society circles with marty and ray, (strategic targets of the plan) and a fellow professor at the university & whats more the very one the captain (i think) warned was dangerous ....Mahtaliel ... all there rashly out on the street like an uncouth and rude knave : and through this fool-hardy arguments we have rumours of these strange newcomers beating their ladies, having debauched nights, being rude and hostile in a public place, arguing and willing to fight ... this but a few mins after they KNOW they have just disposed of a murdered maid ... who it was known esp to rian, that she worked there last night and will shortly be found dead fished out of the river ....

yes, obviously EXACTLY what the captain ordered!

TD, and RIAN i fear you have both not thought this through: we will all be EXTREMELY hard pushed to play this rpg with any seriousness after the body is discovered and identifyed, without the house and its members being shunned and investigated ... after this exchange and foolishness on khamul's part, whats worse is we have lilly and Buz just stand there and effectively rudely support this impression given by khamul ...

are they too mocking the captian's orders?

the house at orrodel will now be shunned by one and all, and its inhabitants not welcome anywhere or by anyone in tharbad ...


thus IF Gor's Morgul Lord does not take action, we would surely have a power struggle ... however Gor is then in the position where she does not want to have to be put in the position of doing what she should to TD's character ... unless he agrees to it????


think about it ... are YOU TWO now trying to prematurely end this game????

once the maid is identified ... after this no one will trust the orrodel strangers ... it is too risky after murder to openly argue and antagonise elves, VIPS and fellow professors!

call ruan in as you would anyway as a lord and master, and as rian SHOULD expect out of politeness to her, and either have her resign or sack her!

well, thats completely up to you, but i fear you have not thought through any of the many aspects of this whole scene .... the disobeying of the captain's orders, whether deliberatedly or through hot headedness (if so i think it a little out of character as Gor said for khamul, but again Td - that is up to you) and yes, it affects everyone in this rpg ... bumble will hear the gossip, barliman will be forced to investigate a previously open and shut case ... ray, marty mr o etc etc will all hear of these rumours, as wil the king, and the co-incidence of a sudden death ... noises and lights will be remembered ...

these stangers come to town a few days but a large mansion, strange events are noted, they insult vip's (earniel and mathaliel) a muder or death occurs fromone of their maids .... mmm a tad suspicious combined with the rumours of beating women and what not!

so, how could every other rpg player "just ignore that"

basically the nazgul cover is more than half blown open ...

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

having the lady of nin in eliph, plus Rian, no matter her position, still seen both seen dancing with warmly talking with the king last night, in society circles with marty and ray, (strategic targets of the plan) and a fellow professor at the university & whats more the very one the captain (i think) warned was dangerous ....Mahtaliel ... all there rashly out on the street like an uncouth and rude knave ...

We've gone back and added edits to make very clear that to all appearances, it looked like a polite conversation. NO ONE overheard it.

and through this fool-hardy arguments we have rumours of these strange newcomers beating their ladies, having debauched nights, being rude and hostile in a public place, arguing and willing to fight ...

Again, the beating part was spoken in the language of Gondolin and NOT understood by ANYONE but the elves. And if the inhabitants of Orrodel made some noise late into the night that was heard by Prof. M, then they'll have to deal with that - there's nothing inherently wrong with it. The fighting references were NOT heard by anyone outside the circle, and they were satisfactorily dealt with. If we could just get Maggie to make a final edit in her post #462 and take out "arguing", then I think it will be perfectly fine (Maggie, would you mind taking out the "arguing" thing?"). An intense, quiet, and to all appearances POLITE conversation outside of Orrodel - I thought it was a lot of fun to have to have everyone restrain themselves and only LOOK daggers at each other while having to appear polite!


NOTE - I made my most recent Arastud post even MORE where they're thinking she's probably OK. I thought you guys would like that, and it seemed realistic.

[Butterbeer]

rian, you hve elves thinking these peope they have never met before previously BEAT their women folk, or do not elves of gondollin understand elvish gondollin????

Td is to do nothing to raise ANY attention on their presence yet you have him standing outside like a knave, and elves for some reason thinking he is a wife or sister beater: we have mathaliel a fellow professor thinking the worse of them and a dead body about to be found?

explain to me how Khamul is following orders here?

or that we do NOT somehow now have an impossible situation where for all players we cannot view any of the orrodel inhabitants without suspicion, dislike or at least be very wary of them once the body appears?

[Rían]

I don't see what the problem is with the "woman-striker" comment - To Tyaron, this strange human is obviously obnoxious (nothing new there - plenty of humans are), and unfortunately, plenty of human men have hit their women, and it's his educated guess from his observations that that's what has also happened here, and in his mind, men that do that are cowards. In his mind, this guy is unsavory, but unfortunately, it's no rare thing in this world ... and my elves have no wish to discuss this unsavory conversation with others.

And why would they think Melwen's death is murder? It was arranged very well to be a suicide.

And personally, I think that speaking with one's major domo outside one's front door is no big deal, but perhaps that's a cultural thing. Here in California, we speak outside a lot, because the weather's so good! After all, perhaps he's sending her out for some fresh bread! - NO ONE overhears the conversation, and it LOOKS polite. The elves will go away with disgust at the Orrodel inhabitants' manners, and be glad they're done with them, and that's it. Rian is sacked, whether it's done inside or outside - that's the only fact that will get around.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

Okay, so the schedule is done, all pretty and typed up in a table format... Making it viewable was a bit troublesome, but here it is:

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...liel/USAT2.jpg

Look good?

[Rían]

oh my goodness, Maggie, that's gorgeous! Thanks!!

Reminds me of my uni days ... *sniff*

[Butterbeer]

Rian, there is all the difference in the world to posting a looked foward to exchange with khamul and what you have written ..

He was furious, and it showed in his eyes. His hands clenched, and Lilly flinched and stepped away a bit. Alagos stepped closer to his sister with a protective look, and Tyaron quietly started evaluating their surroundings, in case it came to a fight

Alagos's hand tensed and moved, but Tyaron, quick as lightning, stopped him, and said to him in a low but urgent voice, in the dialect of Gondolin, "Brother! Do not sully your blade with the blood of this man - he is a woman-striker, a coward. Hark to the woman next to him - she flinches at his movement."

Alagos looked at Lilly, who was indeed shrinking away from Khamul's anger. He breathed hard, but stopped. Eärniel looked on, unsure what to do.

Tyaron said coldly, "I have indeed been rude by the standards of my people by doing this, but I had to choose between the rudeness of speaking in my dialect and the rudeness of you possibly ending up with a dagger in your heart,

TD:

And I advise you against attempting to put a dagger into my heart. For one thing I have been training for long and my old master for even longer. For another there are those in this house and in Tharbad who would kill or have you killed for killing me. But if as I suspect you are not wise and it is indeed a fight you want, then I am not one turn my back,""

Rian

"And my brother would never have attacked you without proper warning," she added. "He was only preparing to draw his dagger to formally call you out, as is our custom. But ... " what she was going to say was "you are not a worthy opponent for him to fight with",

... all this from both you and TD is WELL beyond a leaving post

we have spectators pretending to view and not be conspicous ... why? because they sense some body language or argument ...

rumours will go round ... the maid is soon to be found dead ... now that would have looked like an accident ... now after all this it will be suspicious ...

so, if the watch interview you et all on this witnessed exchange, so short a time later after she is found you will lie about it????

very suspicious, and what of TD/khamul and Gor/Chancellor ... you put Gor and TD in a very insidious position here...

are elves normally this hasty jumping to conclusions? both mathaliel and all the elves bar earniel?

why bring them anyway?

you are free of course to write what you like ... but again i say have you thought the implications of this through?

what you have written is a highly charged scene where a fight nearly happens, and that causes at the very least to some very bad impressions of the inhabitants of Oroddel .... at least to earniel, the professor, and your three elves...

this has repercussions all the way along the line ...

not least between khamul and the morgul lord: is that your intention?

by doing this khamul is in serious danger from his captain, unless TD is planning to usurp him? ... maybe TD is, but he would have no allies ...so it does not make any sense....

[Butterbeer]

...er.. very good, yes , though commerce is at 3pm tuesdays and thursdays ...definetly not saturdays!

plus we need some time to play the rpg without the whole thing being determined by set times six days a week ... a nightmare to stick to and rpg the game .... very good work willow /LMM but could it not be a bit more vague and not all hours six days of the week????

do we need three classes a week????

best BB

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

Mahtaliel not liking Khamul or thinking he's a woman beater is hardly likely to blow the nazgul's cover. We established that their personalities clash at the reception, it gives her justification for an irrational dislike, that's all, and irrational dislikes are hardly abnormal.

I'm glad you like the schedule Rian, I hope everyone else agrees. I tried to make it up while in character, since one of my next posts is going to be of her doing that.

EDIT: BB, just saw your critique of the schedule. Couldn't you have specified the time for commerce before? And since you didn't would it be at all possible for you to go along with what's there? Please? Because editing that thing will take a while. I had to use Word to do the table thingy and unfortunately the only way my computer will let convert a word document to a jpg file that I can post is if I print it out and scan it back in.

As for balancing play time and class time within the game... It's perfectly plausible that a medievalish society would only have one rest day. And I had to fit 16 classes in without having them overlap too much due to the fact that our characters cannot be in two places at once. I think there's plenty that can be played out within the classes, why else would we be having this game in a university?

[Butterbeer]

how about each character need only attend one of the course dates a week, so we do not get swamped with everyone having to be places at certian times everyday six days a week? they can choose which one per course they attend per week?


would you take the idea of someone being a women beater merely on the evidence of a flinch? ... it is hardly an unserious thing to think, and on such flimsly eveidence as lilly, flinching?


very rash and hasty: are all elves so unwise?

what do CS and Lotesse says of this portrayal of their characters?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

... all this from both you and TD is WELL beyond a leaving post

Yes, I wanted it to be beyond a leaving post. I wanted a tense, but private (to the group) interchange, and I like it, and I don't think it blows the Nazgul cover. Please remember that what my characters actually "know" is very different from what we as writers know, and how extremely unlikely that anyone in the rpg would even THINK Nazgul, or anything beyond these are just some boorish inhabitants of Orrodel!

we have spectators pretending to view and not be conspicous ... why? because they sense some body language or argument ...

Yes, it looked interesting, but they WENT AWAY because they couldn't hear and it didn't escalate into anything interesting. I know I posted they couldn't hear, and I intended to post that they went away - I'll check that.

so, if the watch interview you et all on this witnessed exchange, so short a time later after she is found you will lie about it????

On the part of my characters, I would have them say that Khamul was insulting when he fired Rian. If further pressed, they would say that Prof. G. insulted Rian and insinuated that she lied, which in their culture can escalate to a dueling offense so Alagos almost challenged him, but that they made allowances for each other and it was resolved peaceably.

are elves normally this hasty jumping to conclusions? both mathaliel and all the elves bar earniel?

They certainly have their opinions, based on over 3,000 years of experience

why bring them anyway?

I brought Earniel on purpose, so Khamul would have to restrain himself even more. I love his dialogue!

you are free of course to write what you like ... but again i say have you thought the implications of this through?

Very thoroughly, yes, and now I just have to try to explain them better to you! Does this help so far? I know I don't always get things across well ... but I"m willing to work on it!

what you have written is a highly charged scene where a fight nearly happens, and that causes at the very least to some very bad impressions of the inhabitants of Oroddel .... at least to earniel, the professor, and your three elves...

As I said, please remember that they don't "know" what we do - in their opinion, the guy is a boorish jerk, no more - men striking women happens, and they despise it, but wouldn't conclude it to be anything extraordinary, sadly.

not least between khamul and the morgul lord: is that your intention?

Not at ALL - in fact, I rather imagined the ML would be pleased at how Khamul got rid of a pesky elf that Lilly hired, and he even kept his temper, which he had been losing a bit too much lately!

by doing this khamul is in serious danger from his captain, unless TD is planning to usurp him? ... maybe TD is, but he would have no allies ...so it does not make any sense....

Gordis felt comfortable with this (right, Gor?) so hopefully I can explain it better to you, and even add some more edits to tone it down, but I really, really want to keep this scene, and I think it works VERY well.

PS - and please note that Rian does NOT say "you are not a worthy opponent for him to fight with" - she only THINKS it.

I'll go check the post about the observers, and strengthen it so they go away, if I haven't already.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

I don't believe our elves are acting at all over-rash. Have you forgotten the Silmarillion? The Hobbit? Heck, even the Council of Elrond? There are far more examples of elves acting or speaking hastily than there are of elves being exceedingly wise.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

what do CS and Lotesse says of this portrayal of their characters?

Since Lilly has just been very recently beaten quite severely several times by Khamul, I don't see anything out of character with her flinching. In fact, she's done it before in other posts! But of course the final say is up to them.

Maggie - no kidding! The Sil, esp., is just chock-full of emotional elves.

[Gordis]

Shedule
Oh, poor me, poor Chancellor, poor poor undead wretch! (wails). Even Sauron didn't make me work that hard! (wails louder). And when will there be time for my Eastern dancers?

It is a great shedule for RL, Marion, but for this RPG to have 3 same lectures a week is too much, IMHO. It will be too dull. I think two per week will be more than enough, and sometimes even one. And I don't think we should teach on Saturdays. We will not have time for parties like that

BB I agree with all you say. I said the same yesterday. And Lotesse said MUCH MORE. But this scene was made by Rian AND TD.
TD said he won't change it. So, what is there to say??? We will have to live with it.

Yes, the Morgul Lord will take disciplinary actions aganst the Second, once he learns about it.
Could Boom tell him, perhaps? Please, BB!

ALL
Revised Maps of ORRODEL (thanks to Val's professional advice)
Ground Floor
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3.../orrodel11.jpg
First Floor
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...s/orrodel2.jpg
Second Floor
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...s/orrodel3.jpg

Please,BB put them into the INFO thread
And when you edit INFO #3, the map number 3: change please Tharbad7.jpg
to Tharbad8.jpg

[The last sane person]

Working on renewed race post, and trust me, it was LOOONG and very detailed, I had been working on it since the beginning, almost, of the reception from about 3 weeks past! If that gives you any idea...this will be a much abreviated version of it.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Gordis

BB I agree with all you say. I said the same yesterday. And Lotesse said MUCH MORE. But this scene was made by Rian AND TD.
TD said he won't change it. So, what is there to say??? We will have to live with it.

But we've edited it to deal with your objections, and we've also pointed out some misconceptions that you guys had (due mostly to my unclear writing, I'm sure, but I've made changes).

And I still haven't had any response about how Rian was a bad manager I mean, should a major domo expect a maid to be murdered and have contingency plans? Should a major domo sleep in the kitchen? Come now, where did she go wrong? All this stuff took place when she would have been ASLEEP! As I said, she has almost completed the staffing in LESS than the required 3 days, and how can one expect an entire MANSION to be cleaned in 2 days? And all meals were good and on-time, etc. etc. I don't see ANYWHERE where she blew it. It's not HER fault that she doesn't know her employers are Nazgul!

Anyway, gtg. I'm willing to make more edits, if that will help, but not dump the scene. I added the bit where the spectators LEFT because nothing interesting happened, after all.

Sane- can't wait!!