01-30-2003, 05:49 PM | #421 |
The Insufferable
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That's right. It should be "a-the-ism" instead of "a-thi-esm" Huh?
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01-30-2003, 05:58 PM | #422 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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That's right. And that is your mistake for the month - better not make any more 'till February!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-31-2003, 06:43 AM | #423 | |
Halfwitted
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Quote:
The funny thing is, people tend to think I'm a Christian (before I go off on some atheist rant, that is), because I like to quote parts of the Bible at them . . .
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02-02-2003, 05:31 AM | #424 | |||
The Original Corruptor
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In the Voices thread, RÃ*an made the following assertion:
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02-02-2003, 06:28 AM | #425 |
the Shrike
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"Rian must now explain"? What are you? God-Emperor of the Dung Heap? Nobody likes a smug #$%!
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02-02-2003, 08:48 AM | #426 |
The Original Corruptor
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Sticks and stones.
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02-02-2003, 10:28 AM | #427 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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Er it's extremely easy to explain the binding of Isaac as something that Abraham saw as something non-destructive, in fact essential to his worldview and his morals. God's test was not "kill Isaac" God's test was obedience (would he drop the knife when God intervened) and thus acknowledge an aspect of God (elohim as you stated) that was previously unacknowledged.
I just mention this because most Christians are unaware of the uses of classical rabbinic biblical commentary in bolstering their arguments-and there's no point leaving such arguments alone. If you want sling bible verses around I can show you that Abraham eagerly, desperatley wanted to kill Isaac, and even after he realized the purpose of the test still wanted to fulfill the orders, even if at that point he wasn't willing.
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"Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom" Last edited by markedel : 02-02-2003 at 10:30 AM. |
02-02-2003, 11:37 AM | #428 | |||
The Original Corruptor
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Quote:
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Rian stated that God would never "tell you to do anything destructive to yourself or others". According to Genesis 22:2 :
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02-02-2003, 01:07 PM | #429 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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Mmmm Isaac accepted the fact that he was going to die too. Just pointing out that the much vaunted "God can be proven to be bad" via that portion of the bible is pretty suspect.
Basically to your points: 1. God told Abraham to sacrifice his son because Abraham wanted to sacrifice his son (Abraham loved Ishmael better, a fairly easy thing to support using textual analysis) 2. Isaac accepted the fact that his sacrifice was necessary (therefore non-destructive) 3. The real purpose of the binding was to prove to Abraham that law and faith must coexist in a balance (thus the use of different names of God in different sections of the narrative to demonstrate the two conceptions of relations to God). God wanted to see if Abraham would accept the command to stop and accept his son. That was the test-would Abraham accept the "Elohim" aspect of God, and by extension Isaac, his legitimate heir, and the embodier of that law based relation to God. The test was not kill your son to prove your faith-it was accept that law must exist with faith-no law no faith, no faith-no law. There are better examples then the aquedah-examples that are much more troubling and problematic, and in areas that I have not done the analysis so I can't offer you a neat interpertation. Such things as exterminating Amalek, conquest of Cannan etc.
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02-02-2003, 01:19 PM | #430 | |
The Original Corruptor
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Markedel, virtually your entire reply is irrelevant to my argument. Only the following is relevant:
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02-02-2003, 01:29 PM | #431 | |
Halfwitted
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Quote:
2. Just because it's willing doesn't make it non-destructive. Destructive means destroying something. Whether or not Isaac was willing, his life was still about to be literally destroyed. 3. The purpose is irrelevant. God told Abraham to be destructive. The real reason that there are these differences between the old scriptures and today's philosophy is that human philosophy, quite naturally, changes throughout the ages along with humanity itself. It's only logical that there would be differences in thinking throughout several thousand years. P.S. This is not an argument against God, only against the Bible being a literally true in all situations.
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02-02-2003, 09:31 PM | #432 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Just popped in to say I'll address your post on Monday, Anduril - my in-laws just flew in for a visit today and we're in the middle of dinner preps.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-03-2003, 05:05 AM | #433 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Mary
Sorry to burst in on you all like this, but I found a passage in Letters about Virgin Mary that I do not understand, and perhaps someone here could explain to me:
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What is this about Mary being 'the only unfallen person'? This part of Christian belief has escaped me. Can someone explain this, please?
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02-03-2003, 05:56 AM | #434 |
Sapling
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Hi everyone
Is this thread just for Christianity/the Bible or are there any other religions floating around?
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02-03-2003, 09:49 AM | #435 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Artanis, I think that is more a Catholic belief than one shared by all Christians.
Epona, this is just overall religious discussion.
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02-03-2003, 11:19 AM | #436 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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Re: Mary
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02-03-2003, 02:10 PM | #437 |
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Thanks, Gwaimir Windgem and Arien the Maia! So you are saying that according to Catholic belief Mary was born 'immortal', but freely gave up her life after her son was dead? I understand better then why JRRT made a comparison to the Fall of Men and the Numenorean custom of dying voluntarily.
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02-03-2003, 02:30 PM | #438 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Artanis
Thanks, Gwaimir Windgem and Arien the Maia! So you are saying that according to Catholic belief Mary was born 'immortal', but freely gave up her life after her son was dead? I understand better then why JRRT made a comparison to the Fall of Men and the Numenorean custom of dying voluntarily. [/QUOTE Mary wasn't born immortal because, like Tolkien says, she was born after the Fall of Adam and Eve. It is every human's destiny to die now because of what Adam and Eve did. Originally we weren't designed to die. (kinda like the whole Finrod and Andreth story where Andreth says that men weren't ever suposed to die.) Mary had to die and she did. According to Catholic tradition, God, raised her from the dead, body and soul, before her body began to decompose. This is known as the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary. |
02-03-2003, 02:53 PM | #439 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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OK, so Mary wasn't pre-Fall. I remember now that Mary was mentioned in a comment to the Athrabeth also, I better find it and read it again. Thank you again, Arien the Maia
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02-03-2003, 04:36 PM | #440 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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