10-20-2002, 12:06 AM | #421 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Quote:
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 10-20-2002 at 12:07 AM. |
|
10-20-2002, 12:56 AM | #422 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
|
Quote:
__________________
There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
|
10-20-2002, 12:39 PM | #423 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Right here in between yesterday and tomorrow.
Posts: 357
|
Quote:
Iraq is called to task now because Saddam Hussein has been harboring terrorists, fostering terrorists and collecting WMD for himself, and even, unbelievably, providing a retirement zone for old terrorists (though not a completely safe one, as Abu Nidal recently found out). See http://www.iraqfoundation.org for a closer picture of Iraq, check out the Project: Eden link, and then tell me, what are your personal feeling on the opportunity offered for preserving Paradise? It's all in how one phrases the question. What is haunting everybody right now is not really Iraq or any other particular facet of the war -- these same questions could be and were phrased with Afghanistan as the subject rather than Iraq. They will, with time, be phrased with other regions, countries, individuals, as the war continues. The recent terrorist action in Bali points out the possible next region of concern and subsequent response. But presently what everybody really has in mind is the specter of World War III as we have been conditioned to view it by Kubrick's "Dr. Strangelove" and other man-made 'portents of doom.' Indeed, the "cowboy" characterization of the current president of the United States (who is actually from the cream of the upper class elite and the son of a New England-born patrician) seems in large part an attempt to cast him into the role of Slim Pickens in "Strangelove," riding the bomb down to the ground and setting off Doomsday. What is wrong with this picture, apart from the absence of a workable 'Doomsday' system, is that it overlooks that World War III has been going on for quite a time. It doesn't have to be nuclear to qualify: just global and war. Look around the world, check the body counts, and you'll see that we have been wading in the blood of the innocent and the guilty alike for quite some time now. America has stayed out of it, as much as possible, at least militarily, just as with WWII, but this is no longer possible after the attacks of 2001. Now we must join in and thoroughly defeat a faceless, homeless, yet very powerful enemy. It's like trying to wrestle with a Ringwraith -- what's to hold onto if they shed their cloak? And yet they have the power to wound us, kill us, or even worse, drag us into their own horrible, dark world if we do not fight them wisely. This is hardly an easy struggle, but no other nation could be more qualified for the job than us, not because of our arsenal or economic might or global business connections, but because we are ourselves a nation of diverse individuals who see things on the individual level and best deal with things on that level. Well, I do go on. I will mention one other Tolkien tie-in to this situation, though. America used a real-life form of The Ring to end World War II, there being no real-life version of Mount Oroduin to toss the A-bomb into, and since then we have had to grapple with a problem that even Tolkien couldn't solve non-fantastically. It has scarred us at times, brought out our worst characteristics at times, and our very possession of this "Ring" has deformed us in the eyes of many of our peers ever since then. Yet always have we tried to do the right thing, to first keep this thing out of others hands -- not for selfishness, but for the sake of world peace. We failed, of course, but in the long struggle we have learned better than anyone else how important it is to do something for the right reasons. We are doing this now (or why else would we be working so hard to come to agreement on Iraq within the framework of a UN that seems afraid to take its own resolutions--16 of them, I think it was--seriously). If you go to http://www.whitehouse.gov or some other archival site and read the text of the major presidential speeches by President Bush immediately after the attacks in 2001 and early 2002, you will see overall not a justification of premeditated war but the construction of a blueprint of good intentions that has been laid down to guide others as this global war continues down through the years (and it will take years) and takes its toll on our wills, hearts and dreams. I don't believe Kubrick had the right view of World War III. I do think we have entered into a new world where none of us can see very far ahead. But as Tolkien said in another context, some things are good to have begun, no matter how dark the eventual end may be. We have begun . . . . |
|
10-20-2002, 08:47 PM | #424 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
Hello Lady of Ithilien,
You said some good things there, and always your "NICE " nature shows forth. The only thing I would comment on is George Dubya CAN be portrayed as a cowboy despite his parentage and a country will look out for its interest so American motives may not be totally altruistic. This not a swipe at the US just stating ANY country may act this way. Anyway, it nice to know nice people are still around.
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
10-20-2002, 08:48 PM | #425 |
The Buddy Rabbit
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Trapped in the headlights..
Posts: 3,372
|
*yawn*
|
10-20-2002, 08:51 PM | #426 | |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
Quote:
I guess George Dubya will be setting his sights on the Isle of the Ever Young now.
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
|
10-20-2002, 08:53 PM | #427 | |
The Buddy Rabbit
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Trapped in the headlights..
Posts: 3,372
|
Quote:
|
|
10-21-2002, 10:28 AM | #428 | ||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Right here in between yesterday and tomorrow.
Posts: 357
|
Quote:
Not at all the world I want to live in, or envision for others. And yet, as someone said long ago, all that's needed for Evil to triumph is for good men and women to do nothing. And it's so hard to be good in a bad world. Quote:
|
||
10-23-2002, 03:37 AM | #429 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
It was meant as a compliment.
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
10-25-2002, 07:25 PM | #430 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Right here in between yesterday and tomorrow.
Posts: 357
|
And so taken -- thanks!
|
10-29-2002, 10:11 PM | #431 |
The Buddy Rabbit
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Trapped in the headlights..
Posts: 3,372
|
THIS was only to be expected
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20021029_1949.html Bush and his meglomaniac mouth |
10-29-2002, 10:21 PM | #432 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Hobbiton
Posts: 739
|
I'll come back and post more later, but since I have a time limit, I'll just mention why I do not wont to have war this time:
I don't wont to have war, because my brother dropped out of high school, and that added on to the fact that he is jouning the army in January, if we go to war, he would be in one of the first groups. I love my brother, and even though I don't like some of the things that he has done to me, and suspect that he has done to me, I still love him. If my brother died, then I would go insane. And if he didn't die, then he would never be the same again. He just wouldn't be Richard, he would be, well, not Richard, someone diffrent, that I would prefer Richard over. So lets say that he dose not get called off to war. While we were wating to see if he was or not, it would be tense. We would allways be waching and wating and waiting some more to see if he got called or not to go to war! I don't want war for that reason.
__________________
Jesus loves you! Movie vewing count from the theater: Return of the King:9 Two Towers: 11 Fellowship: 13 FRODO LIVES! |
10-29-2002, 10:29 PM | #433 | |
The Buddy Rabbit
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Trapped in the headlights..
Posts: 3,372
|
Quote:
That's probably the best anti-war argument on this thread. |
|
10-30-2002, 12:11 AM | #434 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Why does your brother want to join the army rigth now? He must support the war then or supports the stand the US is taking.
My brother joined the navy before 9/11. He was stationed in Bahrain when the terrorist attacks occurred and was there during the Afganistan action. It is lucky that he's in the navy and not the army - but still he supports the action that the US is taking. There is only one reason to join the armed forces and that is to fight and defend your country. If a person isn't willing to give their life for their country - then they shouldn't join the armed forces. I know it doesn't make it any easier on you. I had to calm my father down during 9/11. My father was in the Navy Sea;ls and he was concerned about my brother.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-30-2002 at 12:13 AM. |
10-30-2002, 02:06 AM | #435 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Well, I want to thank you Coney for posting that link. I found the new information very interesting, and I hope that when other people find out something new, they also will post links. It would be so convenient for us lazy people .
As for entering the army, I agree with you, jerseydevil. And I actually think that Iraq is being a little high and mighty to say that we are "tantamount to declaring war" simply because we demand that they do what they said they'd do in the first place. If it takes threatening or bullying to get them to disarm, then so be it. And if they refuse even then . . . We know what Saddam Hussein is willing to do to people, President Bush keeps stressing that on the news. He is certainly willing to use the weapons of mass destruction that he creates, or give them to terrorists, and I think that it is much better to deal with him now than later, when he can kill millions at a command. I agree with the U.S. position to Iraq, except as regards our position on trade, because that is hurting the Iraqi people much more than the government. |
10-30-2002, 11:16 AM | #436 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
Iraq 'smart sanctions' postponed Iraq 'smart sanctions' derailed by Russia Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-30-2002 at 11:19 AM. |
||
10-30-2002, 12:28 PM | #437 |
The Buddy Rabbit
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Trapped in the headlights..
Posts: 3,372
|
But isn't America the biggest buyer of Iraqi' oil under the food-for-oil program?
|
10-30-2002, 01:08 PM | #438 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
Just because we buy the oil doesn't mean that we don't want to institute better sanctions that get food and medical supplies to the Iraqi people. The accusation that it is AMERICAN's fault that the Iraqi people are starving is ridiculous. Saddam Hussein spouts this crap as he lives in his palaces. By instituting smart sanction - hopefully we can get the goods and money directly to the Iraqi people. I don't know why the UN lets it get funneled through Hussein in the first place. By the way - are you saying we SHOULDN'T be buying their oil?? If that's the case then the people of Iraq would be getting even less - since Iraq only gets things through the food-for-oil program.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-30-2002 at 02:14 PM. |
|
10-30-2002, 02:16 PM | #439 |
The Buddy Rabbit
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Trapped in the headlights..
Posts: 3,372
|
Then if America is the biggest buyer of oil from Iraq then surely America makes the most profit from the existing sanctions?
I think that if sanctions were relaxed to allow Russia and France to trade with Iraq (as per their pre-Gulf War contracts) it would be a good thing.. Saddam is never going to feed/give medical treatment to his people with $'s that come from America (why would he want his people to be grateful to America for anything?) and as America is the biggest buyer of Iraqi' oil is it not time that is it not time that the biggest buyer was a country not quite so antagonistic towards Iraq. Yep Russia would make Billions if sanctions were lifted, and the country could certainly do with the income. Iraq would also make billions, and that has to be good for the Iraqi' people. Maybe Saddam would be willing to spend money on his people if the money came from fair trade after completion of a contract(s) signed with France and Russia more than a decade ago. The money gets funneled through Saddam for one simple reason, he can pull the plug on existing oil exports at the drop of a hat. |
10-30-2002, 02:35 PM | #440 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
|
It would be nice if the were some carrot with the stick, so to speak. The UN resolution being pushed doesn't seem to contain any laguage as to conditions for lifting sanctions. It may be that it is complicit with complying to the previous resolutions, but is does give it a face of a declaration of war. I would prefer that the regime change be left to the Iraqi people annd the disarmament occur. The UN should be a tool to maintain peace, not waging war by proxy. It seems obvious the administration has read the polls (Gallup) that say we are against was without the UN "seal of approval".
EDIT: Has anyone found the text of the resolution as put forth by the whitehouse? I looked a bit last night but didn't find it.
__________________
There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Iran and Iraq-problems-outlook-discussion | brownjenkins | General Messages | 208 | 05-27-2008 12:45 PM |
The effectiveness of a "War" on terror | Fenir_LacDanan | General Messages | 121 | 02-02-2007 03:29 PM |
Putting Saddam's conviction into perspective | MrBishop | General Messages | 24 | 11-21-2006 04:56 AM |
WMD search officially over in Iraq | Ragnarok | General Messages | 40 | 01-14-2005 04:48 PM |