04-10-2006, 08:38 PM | #421 | |
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Will respond to you soon, Bombadillo! Just want to eat supper first.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-10-2006, 09:27 PM | #422 |
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So has anyone been following the whole Gospel of Judas issue thats been in the news recently? Pretty interesting stuff...
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04-10-2006, 09:34 PM | #423 |
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I've followed it. It was a significant Gnostic book, though rejected by the early church. The Apostle Paul spent time in the epistles arguing against Gnosticism.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
04-11-2006, 01:19 AM | #424 |
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I'll have to respond to you tomorrow or another day, Bombadillo. Too busy, and distracted also by the Muslims thread. I'll probably get around to it soon, however .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
04-11-2006, 01:35 AM | #425 | |
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04-11-2006, 01:32 PM | #426 |
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They did a pretty good job analyzing it on a National Geographic special last Sunday. They said the concepts in it were too threatening to the early church so every attempt was made to eliminate it. They gave several reasons.
First, it was too esoteric and "advanced" for the common people to grab onto during a time when christianity was at risk of going extinct because of the persecution against early christians. The church leaders felt the common people needed something more clear and uplifting to grab onto. And the Gospel of Judas was confusing and seemingly in conflict with some of the tenants established in the main four gospels. Several experts said its a brilliant work on a spiritual level but its more of an "advanced" course where as MLMJ are kind of remedial level and easier to grasp. Second, at the time the early christians were in the process of peeling themselves away from Judaism and the concept of Judas as a betrayer was a significant vehicle toward this end (it established a kind of us against them difference within this new Jewish sect) so to suddenly portray Judas as like the number one apostle and the one most trusted by Jesus with “secret knowledge” would undermine that severely. So the powers that be ruled out use of this gospel as heresy. Although interestingly enough many religious experts say the concepts presented in it really make a lot of sense when considering the culture and norms of the era. Apparently the idea of single tutorage was an absolute must by a rabi to his student in that era and was used along WITH group teaching. ONLY group teaching would have been unusual.
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04-11-2006, 07:23 PM | #427 | |
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04-11-2006, 09:33 PM | #428 |
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Come again? Are you implying only unusual and untypical practices should be thought of as legit?
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04-11-2006, 11:06 PM | #429 | |||
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The Gospel of Judas is definitely in conflict with the four Gospels though. And the Gospels of Matthew and John were in all probability written by disciples. Mark, the author of another gospel, was written by a friend of Peter. Luke was a friend to Paul, who knew the disciples and was in the inner circle of the early church leaders. All of these are highly credible authors with a high likelihood of understanding what events had occurred. The authorship of John is debated by some scholars (though there is certainly a good case that it was the disciple John who wrote it), but the others are highly accepted among modern scholarship. On the other hand, who wrote the Gospel of Judas is unknown. Irenaeus attributes the writing of this Gospel to a Gnostic sect called the Cainites, a group which had a common practice of glorifying Old Testament characters who challenged Yahweh and villifying heroes that the Old Testament praised. Its treatment of Judas is little different from this common practice in that sect. According to Wikipedia, the Gospel of Judas claimed to be a "secret account," "the secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot." It was a scripture only for people of a high level among the Cainites. It's all so vague and silly. The Gospel is of unknown authorship, rejected by the Early Church, contrary to the testimony of the disciples (those who knew Judas) and more fantastical than the cannonical Gospels in its account as well. Quote:
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However, there is another answer also possible. Jesus may have had this special disciple in Peter. Jesus had private conversations with Peter that are recorded in the Gospels. Peter was the first of the disciples to proclaim of Jesus, "you are the Son of God!" Peter was the first of the twelve to enter Jesus' tomb. He was the disciple Jesus told, "I give you the keys to heaven and earth," and also one of whom he said, "you shall be called Peter, and on this rock I shall build my church." Jesus also took only Peter and John of the twelve with him to the mountaintop where the Transfiguration occurred.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-11-2006, 11:24 PM | #430 | ||||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-12-2006, 01:10 AM | #431 | |
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04-12-2006, 03:58 PM | #432 | ||||||
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Was this presented as a theory, or did they say they KNEW this? And "threatening" how? If it was because the information contained in it was determined, to the best of their abilities, to be false, then there's certainly nothing wrong with trying to eliminate it. Scientists certainly do this. Quote:
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Point #3 showing a liberal is behind this show: the odd idea that facts don't matter; only one's agenda matters. Quote:
And why I think evolutionists were behind the show? They show a stellar ability here to have a preconceived notion and then make an unproveable theory to fit the observable facts.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-12-2006 at 04:01 PM. |
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04-12-2006, 05:24 PM | #433 | |||||||
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04-12-2006, 06:00 PM | #434 | |||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-12-2006, 10:58 PM | #435 |
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The GJ is "authentic," in one sense of the term. It really was written in the 200s or so, and had to have been a copy of a previous version (since Irenaeus referenced it in 180 AD). Science can confirm it's physical origin. However that is over a hundred years after the canonical Gospels and the book of Acts were written (circa 60-90 AD), and not in the lifetime of any eyewitnesses. Since GJ contradicts Matthew/Mark/Luke/John, it only makes sense to believe the earlier texts that were recorded by the actual eyewitnesses.
Moreover, the GJ is completely full of developed Gnostic ideas (another creator), terms (aeons and luminaries), and beliefs about salvation (only for a select few "enlightened" persons), that are contrary to orthodox Christianity. This is obviously non-first-century theology. The GJ is strictly historically unreliable. Thoughts: -Two centuries is a long time to wait to write something down. Is Abraham Lincoln's "true" life going to be recorded in a few decades? I think not. One can't expect a second or third or fourth century (as some "lost gospels") document to give first century information. -The early church wasn't trying to "supress" the truth. They merely wanted to end the heresy. A quote: 'The leading biblical scholar and translator of the dead sea scrolls, Professor Geza Vermes of Oxford University, said: "The document is of interest for the ideas of the gnostics but it almost certainly adds nothing to our understanding of what happened 150 years before it was written."' It's just another Gnostic gosple guys! Why the hype?
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04-13-2006, 12:22 PM | #436 | ||||||
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04-13-2006, 02:54 PM | #437 | |||
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or http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/ And by the way Im a big Elaine Pagel fan. Quote:
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As to the notion that its silly to take it seriously at all because it wasnt written down till the second century well that doesnt really hold any water because thats only the ONE version we know of. Could it not have been written down before that and just lost? And couldnt it have been passed along by oral tradition like the other gospels? I mean even the 'youngest' of the four main gospels was a good 65 years AFTER the death of christ I believe so you could certainly make the same argument that writing about Lincolns teachings in the 1920's or 1930's would have been silly as well. But you would discounting a lot of unknown factors.
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04-13-2006, 02:56 PM | #438 |
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Gwai, are you saying that IYO, "common people" are stupid?
(and please fix your quote tags - my writing is showing up as your writing)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-13-2006, 03:03 PM | #439 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I think the Newsweek article about this "gospel" had the best line - "Last week, the public unveiling of the manuscript. Next year, the illustrated critical edition. Can the lipstick tie-in be far behind?"
Funny, and also IMO a good summation of why it's even in the news (apart from its interest as an ancient manuscript). I think Merc summed it up best - "It's just another Gnostic gosple guys! Why the hype?"
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-13-2006, 03:07 PM | #440 | |
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