Iraq

[katya]

this thread got long really fast (not surprisingly). i havent read like any of it. oh well. later. ini the meantime, an essay i found (note- this is long so it is in two separate posts):

[start essay]

The administration has said that Iraq has no right to stockpile chemical or biological weapons (''weapons of mass destruction'') -- mainly because they have used them in the past.
Well, if that's the standard by which these matters are decided, then the U.S. is the nation that set the precedent. The U.S. has stockpiled these same weapons (and more) for over 40 years. The U.S. claims that this was done for deterrent purposes during its ''Cold War'' with the Soviet Union. Why, then, is it invalid for Iraq to claim the same reason (deterrence) -- with respect to Iraq's (real) war with, and the continued threat of, its neighbor Iran?

The administration claims that Iraq has used these weapons in the past. We've all seen the pictures that show a Kurdish woman and child frozen in death from the use of chemical weapons. But, have you ever seen these photos juxtaposed next to pictures from Hiroshima or Nagasaki?

I suggest that one study the histories of World War I, World War II and other ''regional conflicts'' that the U.S. has been involved in to familiarize themselves with the use of ''weapons of mass destruction.''

Remember Dresden? How about Hanoi? Tripoli? Baghdad? What about the big ones -- Hiroshima and Nagasaki? (At these two locations, the U.S. killed at least 150,000 non-combatants -- mostly women and children -- in the blink of an eye. Thousands more took hours, days, weeks, or months to die.)

If Saddam is such a demon, and people are calling for war crimes charges against him and his nation, whey do we not hear the same cry for blood directed at those responsible for even greater amounts of ''mass destruction'' -- like those responsible and involved in dropping bombs on the cities mentioned above?

The truth is, the U.S. has set the standard when it comes to the stockpiling and use of weapons of mass destruction.

Hypocrisy when it comes to the death of children? In Oklahoma City, it was family convenience that explained the presence of a day-care center placed between street level and the law enforcement agencies which occupied the upper floors of the building. Yet when discussion shifts to Iraq, any day-care center in a government building instantly becomes ''a shield.'' Think about that.

(Actually, there is a difference here. The administration has admitted to knowledge of the presence of children in or near Iraqi government buildings, yet they still proceed with their plans to bomb -- saying that they cannot be held responsible if children die. There is no such proof, however, that knowledge of the presence of children existed in relation to the Oklahoma City bombing.)

When considering morality and ''mens rea'' (criminal intent) in light of these facts, I ask: Who are the true barbarians?

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by osszie
Well, I have a little trouble speaking in an american accent, but at that price I would whistle dixie

Accent? I don't have an accent.

I can do Brit except I waffle between John Cleese and Oliver

I was a bit disturbed to find out that Israel is going to have free reign to retaliate if there is a war, because it could cause others to attack them. That would defintely get messy. It could spread to others as well; Turkey, Syria, Iran, Jordan, Lebannon, and Egypt are all candidates.

[katya]

[continuation of essay]

Yet another example of this nation's blatant hypocrisy is revealed by the polls which suggest that this nation is greatly in favor of bombing Iraq.

In this instance, the people of the nation approve of bombing government employees because they are ''guilty by association'' -- they are Iraqi government employees. In regard to the bombing in Oklahoma City, however, such logic is condemned.

What motivates these seemingly contradictory positions? Do people think that government workers in Iraq are any less human than those in Oklahoma City? Do they think that Iraqis don't have families who will grieve and mourn the loss of their loved ones? In this context, do people come to believe that the killing of foreigners is somehow different than the killing of Americans?

I recently read of an arrest in New York City where possession of a mere pipe bomb was charged as possession of a ''weapon of mass destruction.'' If a two-pound pipe bomb is a ''weapon of mass destruction,'' then what do people think that a 2,000-pound steel-encased bomb is?

I find it ironic, to say the least, that one of the aircraft that could be used to drop such a bomb on Iraq is dubbed ''The Spirit of Oklahoma.''

This leads me to a final, and unspoken, moral hypocrisy regarding the use of weapons of mass destruction.

When a U.S. plane or cruise missile is used to bring destruction to a foreign people, this nation rewards the bombers with applause and praise. What a convenient way to absolve these killers of any responsibility for the destruction they leave in their wake.

Unfortunately, the morality of killing is not so superficial. The truth is, the use of a truck, a plane, or a missile for the delivery of a weapon of mass destruction does not alter the nature of the act itself.

These are weapons of mass destruction -- and the method of delivery matters little to those on the receiving end of such weapons.

Whether you wish to admit it or not, when you approve, morally, of the bombing of foreign targets by the U.S. military, you are approving of acts morally equivalent to the bombing in Oklahoma City. The only difference is that this nation is not going to see any foreign casualties appear on the cover of Newsweek magazine.

It seems ironic and hypocritical that an act as viciously condemned in Oklahoma City is now a ''justified'' response to a problem in a foreign land. Then again, the history of United States policy over the last century, when examined fully, tends to exemplify hypocrisy.

When considering the used of weapons of mass destruction against Iraq as a means to and end, it would be wise to reflect on the words of the late U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis. His words are as true in the context of Olmstead as they are when they stand alone''

''Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or ill, it teaches the whole people by its example.''

sincerely, Timothy McVeigh
[end essay]



note: i dont know when exactly this was written. also, i am in no way saying that i don't think the oklahoma city bombing was not an attrocity.

[katya]

darn someone posted between my posts darn that 90 second rule darn it to hell

I just wrote a letter to Bush. Know what it might be compared to? A letter to Santa Claus, only possibly less effective.

[Khamûl]

*sigh* Why do these topics always turn into a "Bash America" thing? The last couple of pages have been mainly about points that have already been made or how people think Bush is stupid. It also seems that this thread is getting increasingly personal. How about we try this compromise thing one more time? Like I said before, let's just let this thing lie until something substantial happens in the situation with Iraq. And let's try to make it last longer than the 3 hours and 34 minutes it lasted last time.

[HOBBIT]

but....Bush is stupid.

[osszie]

a Bash America thing? a critisice American Policy thing maybe.........but openly bashing America would have gone a lot further

I do enjoy some American news reports tho'

http://www.msnbc.com/news/822418.asp

[Lief Erikson]

I realize that when I'm posting I haven't read everything that came before, but I simply want to deliver my opinion, even if it is redundant.

President Bush isn't stupid, HOBBIT, he's doing his best and overall I think he's doing a good job. He's probably got one of the toughest jobs that anyone in the world has right now also, and he has more responsibility as well.

As for the attack on Iraq, I think that most Americans simply want Sudam taken out of power. We don't care about bombing out soldiers or infrastructure unless it is terror related. Sudam is a menace, and he is a threat that cannot be ignored. Anyone who ignores it is inviting disaster. If war is necessary to accomplish the end of taking him out of power, it will be done in an effort to save more lives in the long run.

But Sudam ceased to be a threat, we would lower the raised fist.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by osszie
a Bash America thing? a critisice American Policy thing maybe.........but openly bashing America would have gone a lot further

Yeah like this past thread plus many other threads have turned very anti-American...
anti american sentiments

Of course the Anti-American thread was started because there WERE so many threads that turned extremely anti-American. Afro-Elf was curious what the reasons were.

Others on Iraq (notice how threads had to be marked "no US bashing")-
Gallup Poll, Saddam, and other matters. (no US bashing!)

I tried getting this thread going so people could explain the good things about their country or state after a bunch of threads turned anti-American, not to mention the Anti-American thread itself.
What's your country like

It seems as if a lot of the threads that turned anti-American have been removed, including others on Iraq. There were several - including the one about the Isreali-Palestinian situation.

[osszie]

Read those three

Couldn't find any of the others I'd heard rumours of

Maybe it's time to start a fresh one?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by osszie
Read those three

Couldn't find any of the others I'd heard rumours of

Maybe it's time to start a fresh one?

yeah I know you're just heart broken.

As I said in one thread though - "Those who live in glasses houses shouldn't throw stones."

[osszie]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
yeah I know you're just heart broken.

As I said in one thread though - "Those who live in glasses houses shouldn't throw stones."

bless
that good ol' competitive spirit just has to find an outlet
There are a multitude of forums out there to slag off America.......I prefer to let them do it themselves

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by osszie
bless
that good ol' competitive spirit just has to find an outlet
There are a multitude of forums out there to slag off America.......I prefer to let them do it themselves

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you over America. When Britain becomes perfect - let me know.

[osszie]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you over America. When Britain becomes perfect - let me know.

Then what were the comments "bet your heartbroken" and "those who live in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones" in aid of?, not to mention "when Britain becomes perfect let me know"

You never can resist that last kick in the teeth can you JD?

[Sween]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you over America. When Britain becomes perfect - let me know.

that happened ten minutes ago

PS we all know you wish you were english i mean who wants to be american what did you ever bring to the world hehehehehehe

[Cirdan]

Time for little levity....

On a chain of beautiful deserted islands in the middle of nowhere, the following people are stranded...

Two Italian men and one Italian woman
Two French men and one French woman
Two German men and one German woman
Two Greek men and one Greek woman
Two English men and one English woman
Two Bulgarian men and one Bulgarian woman
Two Japanese men and one Japanese woman
Two Irish men and one Irish woman
Two American men and one American woman.

One month later, on this absolutely stunning deserted island in the middle of nowhere, the following things have occurred....

One Italian man killed the other Italian man for the Italian woman.

The two French men and the French woman are living happily together in a ménage a trois.

The two German men have a strict weekly schedule of alternating visits with the German woman.

The two Greek men are sleeping with each other and the Greek woman is cleaning and cooking for them.

The two English men are waiting for someone to introduced them to the English woman.

The two Bulgarian men took one look at the Bulgarian woman and started swimming to a different island.

The two Japanese men faxed Tokyo and are waiting for instructions.

The two Irish men divided the island into North and South and set up a distillery. They do not remember if sex is in the picture because it gets somewhat foggy after a few liters of coconut whisky. However, they are happy because the English aren't having any fun.

The two American men are contemplating suicide because the American woman will not shut up and complains relentlessly about her body, the true nature of feminism, what the sun is doing to her skin, how she can do anything they can do, the necessity of fulfillment, the equal division of household chores, how sand and palm trees make her look fat, how her last boyfriend respected her opinions and treated her a lot better than they do, and how her relationship with her mother is the cause of all her problems, and why didn't they bring a cell phone with them so they could call 911 and get them all rescued from this godforsaken deserted island in the middle of nowhere... so she can get her nails done and go shopping.

[azalea]

Ouch.

[afro-elf]

Hey Cirdan thanks for posting that one. I hadn't heard it in a while.


I really wanna say through a tired mind at this point, NOBODY'S country is unblemished.

We should be talking about policies not unabaitted criticism.

If you don't think America should attack say so and why and vice versa.

If you don't like George's decision fine.

But there is a big differenece between saying that I don't like his policies and saying that America is full of War mongers and baby killers.


Policies and people are not the same. (in the general sense for you nitpickers)

[Cirdan]

Hey A-E it's good to hear from your again.

I was surprised to hear that the news of the nukes in North Korea was withheld by the administration until the Iraq bill passed. Shenanagins!

[afro-elf]

Greetings shipwright.

I still stick my head in but just don't have the time to engage in lengthy debates but I am gonna post your above joke on the feminism thread