Theism

[Blackheart]

No. I've just stuck my head in the door to tell you all what a bunch of silly ninnyhammers you all are.

[BeardofPants]

Yeah? Well mud sticks.

*splashes merrily about in the mud*

Oops. Did I just splash little diddums?

[Cirdan]

BH, I thought you would be a good source for the de-juicing constant of a human. Surely you have "cold-pressed" a few creatures? I'm thinking maybe 65% juice.

[Andúril]

Hey, I've just thought of another rant:

Argument from Incomprehension

Since Mankind cannot comprehend the theological consequences of its actions in this "temporary" existence, God should not enforce his law.

God: JC god: benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient.

Firstly, I have assumed for the sake of this argument that we inhabit some type of "temporary existence" as advocated by Christian doctrine/dogma. I have done so because I am arguing within the context of this particular doctrine.

Secondly, we need to look at the theological consequences of our actions: Heaven and Hell. I have in other threads tried to show how difficult it is to grasp the concept of eternity. If one thinks of an enormous amount of time, as described previously, we are actually no closer to eternity than before. Indeed, thinking of an even larger time period, one is still no closer to eternity. This is because, as most of you know, eternity is "time unending". Since there is no end-point, one cannot be closer to the end-point. It seems that one cannot think of a length of time that would be identical to eternity. Therefore, one cannot comprehend eternity.

In the Christian theological context, if someone is unable to comprehend the consequences of actions, should that person be subject to those consequences nevertheless?

The being responsible for enforcing these consequences (or punishment/reward) is God. God is omniscient (as per Christian doctrine), so he does comprehend the reward/punishment. Mankind, in its limited capacity for understanding (as compared to an omniscient being), does not. Is it fair, to hold someone to a law, which involves consequences which they cannot comprehend?

Take the classification of a minor, as opposed to an adult, in the eyes of the law. It is clear that the same crime can be committed by a minor or an adult, but each will suffer different consequences.

For example, person X is 8 years old, and person Y is 28 years old. Person Z is the murder victim. In the eyes of the law, Y can be given a certain sentence, if found guilty. X, in a parallel case, is given a different, more lenient sentence, in light of the fact that he/she is less mature, lacks the self-control, and/or cannot comprehend the consequences of his/her actions.

God does not operate like that. He holds everyone to the same laws. Additionally, there is no separation of those who can comprehend the consequences and those who can't. Nobody other than God (assuming no other omniscient beings exist) can comprehend the stipulated consequences.

Once again, we hear about free will, with which we can choose to either believe or not believe, etc. However, since the consequences (punishment/reward) cannot be comprehended, free will does not add anything to the issue. It does not allow us to suddenly make an informed decision, because free will does not give us the ability to comprehend eternity.

If we were all able to comprehend the "afterlife consequences", we could continue the discussion about whether it is fair or unfair to exact them on us. However, not only is it untrue that some have this ability, but it is true that none have this ability. This is incredibly unfair.

This goes against the [fair] nature of a benevolent deity.

[Andúril]

Joke:

I was in San Francisco once, walking along the Golden Gate Bridge, and I saw this guy on the bridge about to jump. So I thought I'd try to stall him, detain him long enough for me to put the film in my camera.
I said, "Don't jump!" And he turned.
You've heard of the Elephant Man? He was kinda like that. He had a -- well, you could say he had the head of a horse. My heart went out to him. I said, "Why the long face?"
"Because all my life people have called me mean names like Horse's Head, Flicka, Chess Piece, or Trigger."
"Well, don't worry about it, Ed. It can't be that bad."
"My girlfriend's suing me."
"For Palimony?"
"Why was I put on this earth?"
"My friend, anywhere else you wouldn't stand a chance!"
"Nobody loves me."
"God loves you, you silly ninny."
"How do you know there is a God?"
"Of COURSE there's a God. Do you think that billions of years ago a bunch of molecules floating around at random could someday have had the sense of humor to make you look like that?"
He says, "I do believe in God."
I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"
"A Christian."
"Me TOO! Protestant or Catholic?"
"Protestant."
"Me too. What franchise?"
"Baptist."
"Me too. Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
"Northern Baptist."
"Me too. Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist or Northern Conservative Reformed Baptist?"
He says, "Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist."
I said, "Me too. Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Eastern Region?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region."
I said, "Me too. Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879 or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He says, "Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."
"DIE heretic!" I cried, and shoved him off the bridge.

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Cirdan
BH, I thought you would be a good source for the de-juicing constant of a human. Surely you have "cold-pressed" a few creatures? I'm thinking maybe 65% juice.

Err, it depends on how hard you press and what method you use.

Just pressing... such as in a nice large hydrolic press, you are probably only going to get like 3-4 gallons of fluids... about 50-70% of the fluid.

"Juicing" on the other hand is a technique that refers to taking the insides out and leaving the exterior... so you are likely to only get about 1-2 gallons, but it's much superior grade stuff.

Not like those cheap mixes they make, where you completely blend the human, and then filter the "bits" out. That yeilds about 5-6 gallons.

Why do you want to know anyway?

[Blackheart]

Oh.. as for all the silly ninny hammers, proving or disproving the existence of a metaphysical concept or entity is merely a form of philosophical masterbation.

SO don't sling nay of that stuff towards me or I'll be forced to argue that abstract entities do exist and can be proven, and therefore it lends support for the idea that there is the possibility for a universal consiousness.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Blackheart
Oh.. as for all the silly ninny hammers, proving or disproving the existence of a metaphysical concept or entity is merely a form of philosophical masterbation.

Really? Where does it rank with intellectual or physical masturbation? O, nevermind I think I know the answer to that one,

SO don't sling nay of that stuff towards me or I'll be forced to argue that abstract entities do exist and can be proven, and therefore it lends support for the idea that there is the possibility for a universal consiousness.

I was pitching for this thread to be closed like the anti-theist thread. (See flogging entry... hey, a link to our posts). But, if we are going to continue to flog this dead dolphin, then, by all means, BH.

Originally posted by Anduril
This goes against the [fair] nature of a benevolent deity.

Your just going to make them say, "we are all sinners. Just submit to god and he will forgive you." It's like a cheesy nightclub were only people with the password get in, no matter what their character. If there is no forgiveness for not beleiving, then I'm not even interested in joining. "Oh, murder, well that's fine as long as you accept theLord as your savior". Dime Store Mystery....

Dime Store Mystery (Lou Reed - "New York")

He was lying banged and battered, skewered and bleeding
talking crippled on the Cross
Was his mind reeling and heaving hallucinating
fleeing what a loss

The things he hadn't touched or kissed his senses
slowly stripped away
Not like Buddha not like Vishnu
life wouldn't rise through him again

I find it easy to believe
That he might question his beliefs
The beginning of the Last Temptation
Dime Story Mystery

The duality of nature, Godly nature,
human nature splits the soul
Fully human, fully divine and divided
the great immortal soul

Split into pieces, whirling pieces, opposites
attract
From the front, the side, the back
the mind itself attacks

I know the feeling, I know it from before
Descartes through Hegel belief is never sure
Dime Store Mystery, Last Temptation

I was sitting drumming thinking thumping pondering
the Mysteries of Life
Outside the city shrieking screaming whispering
the Mysteries of Life

There's a funeral tomorrow
at St. Patrick's the bells will ring for you
Ah, what must you have been thinking
when you realized the time had come for you

I wish I hadn't thrown away my time
on so much Human and so much less Divine
The end of the Last Temptation
The end of a Dime Store Mystery

[Andúril]

Blackheart:Oh.. as for all the silly ninny hammers, proving or disproving the existence of a metaphysical concept or entity is merely a form of philosophical masterbation.

It's philosophical mastUrbation, and I like it.

[afro-elf]

The physical kind is kinda good too.

[Andúril]

[ Unwanted mental images ]

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Anduril
It's philosophical mastUrbation, and I like it.

You would notice the Master part in "masterbation". One wonders, yes we do.

So name me some abstract concepts that demand existance. Do you know of any? Other than masturbation?

Perhaps there are a couple of abstracts that demand existence. Like zero, and alpha.. for example. Are you for or against Platonist Mathematics?

[Andúril]

Blackheart:
Are you for or against Platonist Mathematics?

Neither, at this point in time.

Is masturbation really an abstract concept?

[Andúril]

Afro-elf:
The physical kind is kinda good too.

Lev.15:16 "And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even."

[BeardofPants]

For the love of sick twisted weirdos in raincoats, why can you silly males not spell masturbation right?!

Hey, BH, you know what they say about people who spout metaphysics....

Metaphysics is almost always an attempt to prove the incredible by an appeal to the unintelligible. - H.L. Mencken.

Not pointing any fingers of course.

Hey, are we spanking monkeys?

[Andúril]

BoP:
For the love of sick twisted weirdos in raincoats, why can you silly males not spell masturbation right?!

Hey!! I spelt it right!

Does that mean I am an expert in masturbation?

Or better yet, an authority in spanking the monkey?

[BeardofPants]

Just a hypothetical, but would this authority be GODLY authority?

[Andúril]

Am I not godly?

[afro-elf]

Hey, are we spanking monkeys?

Sorry sis I train my wookie

I think our goal of shutting this down is on the horizon

[afro-elf]

Am I not godly?

reminds me of comodus from gladitator

"Am I not merciful!!!!"