Evidence for Evolution - Page 21

Spock · 10-05-2005, 01:33 PM

More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction. Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly.
--Woody Allen--

***Rían*** · 10-05-2005, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

OK, I did mispeak (mistype?) somewhat.

I thought you might have, but it was an important point to me, so I made that post.

Quote:

But in the vast majority of cases, the data doesn't unequivocably show that it isn't supported anymore... it just shows that it doesn't seem to cover one case or another, in which case you try to adapt your theory to cover the abnormal case until you come up with something new. You don't just throw out a theory that explains most cases because one case isn't explained yet.

I can certainly agree with that.

Spock · 10-05-2005, 02:54 PM

I'm so happy you two agree on something.

rohirrim TR · 10-05-2005, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i think CC spelled it out pretty well...

remember, as i have stressed before... this is not about right and wrong (which is ultimately unknowable)... it is about what "science" does and does not concern itself with

right and wrong are only unknowable if you have no standard, but i'm pretty sure this discussion belongs in another thread

Curubethion · 10-05-2005, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarthBound

1. Evidence for 'Intelligent Design' lies in a vein of logic.
2. Evidence for "Evolution" lies in vain of logic as well

I like that quote!

And no, ID cannot be purely scientific. But we can observe its results: for instance, the frontal lobes contained in human brains that allow us to strategize (which no monkey has ever done

). So if evolution is science, ID has as much right to be a science. Besides, Olorin is from Canada, and who trusts Canadians?

Count Comfect · 10-05-2005, 07:31 PM

No monkey has ever strategized? True. No APE has ever strategized? False. Apes have developed enough to strategize; for an example, this defense of their territory by chimps against an intruder. http://www.janegoodall.net/chimp_cen...or/hunting.asp

Plus, that result, even if considered true (which it is in a larger sense; we do indeed think more deeply than other apes. We think), is not evidence of intelligent design. Evolution ALSO accounts for humanity's superiority in that case, and without positing an unknown designer.

Curubethion · 10-05-2005, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

No monkey has ever strategized? True. No APE has ever strategized? False. Apes have developed enough to strategize; for an example, this defense of their territory by chimps against an intruder. http://www.janegoodall.net/chimp_cen...or/hunting.asp

Plus, that result, even if considered true (which it is in a larger sense; we do indeed think more deeply than other apes. We think), is not evidence of intelligent design. Evolution ALSO accounts for humanity's superiority in that case, and without positing an unknown designer.

If apes really do strategize, why haven't they developed an army system or government? (Oh, right, I forgot about Planet of the Apes

)
But how can such strategizing or any increased intelligence be the result of random mutation? How do you go from sentient to intelligent?

***Rían*** · 10-05-2005, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curubethion

And no, ID cannot be purely scientific.

neither can evolution, obviously. Or it should be obvious.

Spock · 10-05-2005, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curubethion

If apes really do strategize, why haven't they developed an army ?

You obviously haven't seen "Primal Force".

Curubethion · 10-05-2005, 08:18 PM

Notice my reference to "Planet of the Apes".

Count Comfect · 10-05-2005, 09:17 PM

You go from sentient to intelligent with a few more mutations surrounding brain formation... specifically, whichever genes it is that affect a) the "wrinkly-ness" of the brain (how many neuron connections there are) and b) specialization between the hemispheres of the brain. Or at least, that's what I've read. I am not a neurobiologist.

"Purely scientific" is something evolution can aspire to, but ID cannot until the existence of a potential designer is proven.

Curubethion · 10-05-2005, 09:19 PM

How would you explain the evolution of consciousness? After all, we're conscious, but plants aren't. Excepting ents, of course, if they are plants...

Count Comfect · 10-05-2005, 09:23 PM

How would I explain it? Random mutations that happened to accumulate in a) the development of a brain (something we have and plants don't... remember, they're an entirely different KINGDOM, let alone species/genus etc, so they are FAR away from us on the evolutionary timechart) and b) the development of that brain into something sentient and then intelligent.

And no, I cannot tell you exactly what gene it was that did those, or exactly when. It was a long process.

Curubethion · 10-05-2005, 09:24 PM

So how do you know it really happened?

Count Comfect · 10-05-2005, 09:27 PM

I know the end result, so I know something must have happened. As for what...

By examining fossil records, taking logical extrapolations from said records, doing experiments on what we think primordial earth looked like and doing extrapolations in the other direction, and by observing the changes that artificial selection and environmental stress can cause in a population and extrapolating from THAT.

Curubethion · 10-05-2005, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

I know the end result, so I know something must have happened.

Yeah, which could be ID...
I have trouble seeing how consciousness could evolve.

Count Comfect · 10-05-2005, 09:32 PM

Go and find scientific papers on the subject. That will give you the evidence. It is not my fault if you aren't willing to believe the evidence we do mention.

And as I have said before, and brownjenkins has made a point of saying, YES, it COULD be ID. But it is not a scientific theory, and it is not provable unless you can prove the existence of a being capable of such design. Until such time, I will not believe it. Evolution is the scientific theory that explains it, and I will hold to it until it is DISproved.

Curubethion · 10-05-2005, 09:35 PM

Atheistic "creation" has only one option: evolution. Theistic creation has a wealth of options: literal young earth creation, nonliteral old earth creation, theistic evolution, ID...

Count Comfect · 10-05-2005, 09:36 PM

All of which posit a god. Which is unproven. And unscientific.

Also, what would it matter if theism has any number of solutions if Atheism were RIGHT?

Curubethion · 10-05-2005, 09:38 PM

If theism is unscientific, isn't atheism also unscientific? After all, it's belief in a non-god.

Quote:

Also, what would it matter if theism has any number of solutions if Atheism were RIGHT?

Show me the proof that it's right.

10-05-2005, 01:33 PM	#401
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	This deserves to be repeated More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction. Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly. --Woody Allen-- __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

10-05-2005, 02:54 PM	#403
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	at last I'm so happy you two agree on something. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

10-05-2005, 07:31 PM	#406
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	No monkey has ever strategized? True. No APE has ever strategized? False. Apes have developed enough to strategize; for an example, this defense of their territory by chimps against an intruder. http://www.janegoodall.net/chimp_cen...or/hunting.asp Plus, that result, even if considered true (which it is in a larger sense; we do indeed think more deeply than other apes. We think), is not evidence of intelligent design. Evolution ALSO accounts for humanity's superiority in that case, and without positing an unknown designer. __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

10-05-2005, 08:18 PM	#410
Curubethion Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: College! Posts: 1,976	Notice my reference to "Planet of the Apes". __________________ Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan)

10-05-2005, 09:17 PM	#411
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	You go from sentient to intelligent with a few more mutations surrounding brain formation... specifically, whichever genes it is that affect a) the "wrinkly-ness" of the brain (how many neuron connections there are) and b) specialization between the hemispheres of the brain. Or at least, that's what I've read. I am not a neurobiologist. "Purely scientific" is something evolution can aspire to, but ID cannot until the existence of a potential designer is proven. __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

10-05-2005, 09:19 PM	#412
Curubethion Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: College! Posts: 1,976	How would you explain the evolution of consciousness? After all, we're conscious, but plants aren't. Excepting ents, of course, if they are plants... __________________ Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan)

10-05-2005, 09:23 PM	#413
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	How would I explain it? Random mutations that happened to accumulate in a) the development of a brain (something we have and plants don't... remember, they're an entirely different KINGDOM, let alone species/genus etc, so they are FAR away from us on the evolutionary timechart) and b) the development of that brain into something sentient and then intelligent. And no, I cannot tell you exactly what gene it was that did those, or exactly when. It was a long process. __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

10-05-2005, 09:24 PM	#414
Curubethion Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: College! Posts: 1,976	So how do you know it really happened? __________________ Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan)

10-05-2005, 09:27 PM	#415
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	I know the end result, so I know something must have happened. As for what... By examining fossil records, taking logical extrapolations from said records, doing experiments on what we think primordial earth looked like and doing extrapolations in the other direction, and by observing the changes that artificial selection and environmental stress can cause in a population and extrapolating from THAT. __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

10-05-2005, 09:32 PM	#417
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	Go and find scientific papers on the subject. That will give you the evidence. It is not my fault if you aren't willing to believe the evidence we do mention. And as I have said before, and brownjenkins has made a point of saying, YES, it COULD be ID. But it is not a scientific theory, and it is not provable unless you can prove the existence of a being capable of such design. Until such time, I will not believe it. Evolution is the scientific theory that explains it, and I will hold to it until it is DISproved. __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

10-05-2005, 09:35 PM	#418
Curubethion Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: College! Posts: 1,976	Atheistic "creation" has only one option: evolution. Theistic creation has a wealth of options: literal young earth creation, nonliteral old earth creation, theistic evolution, ID... __________________ Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan)

10-05-2005, 09:36 PM	#419
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	All of which posit a god. Which is unproven. And unscientific. Also, what would it matter if theism has any number of solutions if Atheism were RIGHT? __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

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