The Anti-theist Thread

[Nibs]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
I believed in God when I was a kid, because that's what my parents told me to believe in. I went to church, and all that stuff.

I like to question, to query, and so forth. Religion, on the whole, does not let you do that: it comes down to faith: whether or not you believe. Science however, does.

"All that stuff"? Did you ever read James 1:5? Did you practice your "beliefs" with humility and real faith, fall down on your knees and beg to know the answers to your questions? If not then I think that your "experience" with religion holds little water.

As for that second part, I hope you asked your leaders. If you did, and they could not answer you sufficiently, did you get a second opinion through friends or leaders of other faiths? If all you did was question your religion and drop it altogether because the answers weren't handed to you without any effort, I daresay you didn't try hard enough.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by olsonm
Can science disprove 'God'? I don't know. Is science incapable of proving 'God's existence? I don't know that either. I don't think anybody knows for sure. Does this post contribute to this discussion? Probably not.

If you read my earlier arguments, you will see that I was not trying to disprove 'god', just incorporate evolution into the divine creation belief. I don't think evolution disproves god, I don't believe in god, but they can go hand in hand. Read my earlier arguments, esp on the theist thread for more.

[Rána Eressëa]

I seek no answer (though many think I'm lying when I say this) because it will not be revealed in my time, and may never be. Overall, I believe in possibilities. I believe it's a possibility that when we die there's nothing else. I believe it's a possibility that there may be some greater power. I believe it's a possibility that it's a reincarnation thing and life goes ever, ever on without an end. I believe in possibilities, because there is no hardcore proof of either, though science has the upper hand of all thanks to its facts and truths and not blind faith.

If there is a greater power, it/he/she did not have any part in the bible, for the bible speaks of man's view of God, not God's view of himself. And until it is proven to my face that the greater power did have influence in writing it, do not ever count on me picking up your faith. Such a powerful creator would not be so ashamed to show me its/his/her face. Hiding, to me, is taken as either shame, detachment, or fear. And if not here - what is it/he/she but hiding? It's so easy to make a big dramatic appearance and gain the once lost belief of many people. Creator to its creation is like a parent to its children - which makes God a few centuries late in paying the child support bill.

One thing I've always disliked about Christianity was the whole "do not accept God and you shall go to Hell". If I was God, I would never hurt those who didn't believe in me because I would not show myself to them. Instead, I would grant them a place in Heaven, and show them that it is indeed a wonderful place. If this is so, I'm more compassionate than this "god" you speak of. Ironic, isn't it?

Sure, I joke about religion and call it a "fairy tale", but no more than the believer that looks at me and says they pity me. Not too long ago when I first told my best friend I no longer believed in God, she wrote my name on the prayer board at her church. She said she was only trying to help, but it sickened me. I respected her and her beliefs - not only that, but I supported her - and she turns around without an ounce of faith or respect for me and my beliefs. I refused to let the friendship end, though, and I told her how it made me feel.

We're still friends to this day because of my faith in her. What's ironic is that all of her Christian faith couldn't have saved our friendship, because she judged rather than understood. I seek to understand; not to judge. Though sometimes I pretend I do. Sometimes I act as if I think something is wrong, but in my heart I know I can't say that honestly. Therefore, I never do. Most of it is just sarcasm.

The point in this, is religion influences judgement, while what I believe in influences understanding. Judgement comes as black and white. Understanding comes as grey. The grey matter is what matters most, and yet it is the most ignored of the three worlds. I refuse religion because I refuse judgement. The lioness does not think twice about killing the hyena after it attacks her cubs - why should we? Understand why she does it: protection of family, of loved ones. We are no different no matter how much we try to separate ourselves from the rest of the living creatures.

The truth is stranger than fiction. That speaks very loud for the statistics of religious people making up 90% of the world and non-religious people making up only 10%. Which is stranger in the eyes of humans? To not believe in God. And if truth be stranger than fiction, 90% of the world has been denying the truth for far too long. Often have I found the strangest thing was the truth, because usually it is what the majority does not expect.

Rather long post, I know, but I hope those on this thread have read it in its entirety... and has understood

[olsonm]

Originally posted by BeardofPants


If you read my earlier arguments, you will see that I was not trying to disprove 'god', just incorporate evolution into the divine creation belief. I don't think evolution disproves god, I don't believe in god, but they can go hand in hand. Read my earlier arguments, esp on the theist thread for more.

BofP, I wasn't talking to you. That was a random thought that was somewhat off topic.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by olsonm


BofP, I wasn't talking to you. That was a random thought that was somewhat off topic.

I know. And a very good random thought. Puts everything into place really. We can all argue til we're blue in the face, but ultimately, is really does come down to faith, either way. That much, we have established. My main bone of contention, is that people still don't believe the age of the earth is at least 4.55 billion years, and that there have been other hominids previous to H. sapiens sapiens. This in no way discounts divine creation.

[olsonm]

Originally posted by BeardofPants


come(s) down to faith, either way.

I agree.

As for people disbelieving scientific evidence, well, to paraphrase you, that comes down to human fallacy, not religion as a method. Some religious people can handle scientific discoveries.

P.S. I know you know this, I just felt like spoutin' off again.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by olsonm
Some religious people can handle scientific discoveries.

Yes, most early evolutionary theory comes from religious people, ie Darwin, Lamarck, Lyell etc.

[Nibs]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
We can all argue til we're blue in the face, but ultimately, is really does come down to faith, either way.

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Read my earlier arguments, esp on the theist thread for more.

Ditto.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Rogue Elf
....
Rather long post, I know, but I hope those on this thread have read it in its entirety... and has understood

Thank you for your articulate and personal expession of how you have come to your own conclusions. It does take a thick skin and a strong mind to take an unpopular stand.

[Starr Polish]

I've noticed on this thread so many people fighting about evolution/creationism.

I would just like to state that it IS possible to be a Christian (or any 'creationist' religion) and still believe in evolution.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
I've noticed on this thread so many people fighting about evolution/creationism.

I would just like to state that it IS possible to be a Christian (or any 'creationist' religion) and still believe in evolution.

Originally posted by BeardofPants
We can all argue til we're blue in the face, but ultimately, is really does come down to faith, either way. That much, we have established. My main bone of contention, is that people still don't believe the age of the earth is at least 4.55 billion years, and that there have been other hominids previous to H. sapiens sapiens. This in no way discounts divine creation.

[Rána Eressëa]

Originally posted by Cirdan
Thank you for your articulate and personal expression of how you have come to your own conclusions. It does take a thick skin and a strong mind to take an unpopular stand.

It's harder than most think: getting to the point where you trust yourself enough to know which way you find is best to travel upon

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Rogue Elf


It's harder than most think: getting to the point where you trust yourself enough to know which way you find best to travel upon

Especially if you're trying to travel UPSTREAM against the current!

[Starr Polish]

It's funny that everyone seems to think that people become Christians because it's the easy way of life, and it's acceptable. I can tell you, that especially in my school, some people do not find it acceptable that you believe in God. My friends and I have been cussed out simply because the person knew that we were Christian. Our biology teacher repeatedly attacks my friends on their religious beliefs.

I think the worst thing that goes on is there are people at my school that claim that they are 'as unprejudiced as they can get' and are 'all for people doing their own thing', but then come out and insult us and mock our beliefs.

Kind of like this girl that claimed she is the most tolerant person in our school, right after saying she's an atheist because all Christians are stupid and brainwashed.

[Rána Eressëa]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
It's funny that everyone seems to think that people become Christians because it's the easy way of life, and it's acceptable.

I believe Christians are Christians because it's one of the easiest ways to understand where everything came from and how it came to be. It is, as I like to say, the explaination of life and existance for them. Most people wish to know that, so I cannot blame them for wanting to know that. People are curious. That's just the way we are. However, in the end, it's all about wanting to understand, but some people take it so literally they begin judging others, which is not their place to take part in.

To me, it's better to have ideas than beliefs. Ideas can be changed, whereas beliefs are trickier. People fight for beliefs, people kill for beliefs, people die for beliefs.

If you've seen "Dogma", forgive me, I could not resist (May the 13th Apostle live forever!)

[Starr Polish]

A lot about being a 'true' Christian is actually having an experience with God, and it's hard to understand without the Holy Spirit.


That probably sounds like a bunch of hooey, but it does being able to believe with all your heart has a lot to do with the Holy Spirit (at least, I think so)

[mirrille]

Originally posted by afro-elf

i'm still confused on the radio-dating
what IS a precise reading
and what IS an accurate reading

I don't think this was clear enough. "Precision" is has to do with how narrow a range your measurement can be in. "Accuracy" has to do with how close your measurement is to the "true" value.

I'll give a really dumb example. Suppose you have a stick you are trying to measure the length of. Say the stick is 2 metres long. If you use your measuring method (I don't know...measure against your feet, eyeball it, whatever) and you get an answer of 1.5 m. You try again and you get 1.49, 1.52, 1.47, 1.51, and so on, I'd say your method is pretty precise. That's because the variability isn't very huge. You can say that your answer is in and around 1.47-1.52. You always get close to the same answer. But, I'd have to say the method is not very accurate, because you were WAY off the true value of 2 m. On the flip side, maybe your method gives you answers ranging from 1.5 to 2.5. Accurate, but not precise. The best is precise AND accurate.

Rouge Elf, that was a very good post.

We're still friends to this day because of my faith in her. What's ironic is that all of her Christian faith couldn't have saved our friendship, because she judged rather than understood. I seek to understand; not to judge.

I'm lucky because on the whole my friends are very understanding, but I have also experienced similar incidents. I also have friends who have become very strong in their faith because they questioned it and found what they wanted, even if it was just...more faith. I don't understand it myself, but I have alot more respect for those people because they were able to think about it and made it their own, in a way. That's the important thing. But non-Christians like you and me also have our own story, and we chose a different path, with our eyes open. I know it's frustrating when other people are so patronizing. It belittles your story and your achievement.
I think as to what is "easier" or more "acceptable", (this is for you, Starr! ) I think alot of it depends on where you live and who you associate with. Some places, it's more acceptable to be Christian, some places are much less religious. Lucky for you, your country is (supposed to ) have freedom of religion, so it shouldn't really matter, in the long run. We all do as we please.

[Rána Eressëa]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
A lot about being a 'true' Christian is actually having an experience with God, and it's hard to understand without the Holy Spirit.

Are you saying you have to believe in the Holy Spirit in order to understand anything in the world? If so, that's entirely false, because I don't need the Holy Spirit to understand things. I'm doing a better job at that than the majority of people who claim they are Christians. Understanding comes with having an open mind: you must be willing to accept things. Lots of Christians have a hard time accepting things.

If that's not what you meant, don't mind me, Starr The way you worded it comes off in that context.

[jerseydevil]

I agree BeardofPants - most of the atheists have experienced both religion and no-religion. I even looked at other religions before fully deciding on atheism. All Religions are basically based on "unfailing, unquestioning belief".

Originally posted by Nibs

It seems to me like you say this from a purely nontheistic paradigm. I know that I spoke from my theistic one, but from personal experience. I speak from experience with both.

In the most sincere way, I ask you: can you honestly tell me that you do as well?

I grew up in the Catholic Religion- going to Catholic School in New Jersey all my life. I didn't really decide I was atheist until I moved to Indiana and saw how narrow minded people were about religion. I also know that religion has not always, nor does it now always, search and accept scientific proof. For a long time the Catholic Chrurch declared anyone that said the earth revolved around the sun as a heretic.

I base my beliefs on scientific findings - when those findings change - I will change my views. As I've said before more science supports evolution than creationism. That's why my schools taught evolution - even though they were Catholic schools. However in Indiana most religious schools do not teach evolution.

A god makes no sense to me. That's why I don't believe. Why does there have to be a god? My life is no better or worse with or without god. I've had a lot of religious people tell me that I should find god - that it's make my life easier - my life wasn't any easier when I did "believe".

Everyone has told me my mother is in heaven waiting for me and if I don't believe I'll never see her again. She is in the ground in Piscataway NJ in Sacred Heart Cemetary. Cemetaries and funerals are a way to make us feel better about death - and heaven is an extension of that concept.

[Starr Polish]

No, you took what I said out of context. More tommorow, too ill and tired to respond.