10-10-2005, 09:35 PM | #401 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I meant to provide input for inked and IRex's subject of abortion/poverty, but it is a bit off-topic, sorry
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-10-2005, 10:52 PM | #402 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
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suggestion: delete the cartoon #390, it has nothing to do with the subject topic. You can do this on your own without the knives of mods. or we fly in with our sicc and nip tools and vanish it quickly in the night.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Last edited by Spock : 10-10-2005 at 11:14 PM. |
10-11-2005, 09:22 AM | #403 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
JAMA. 2005 Aug 24;294(8):947-54 Fetal pain: a systematic multidisciplinary review of the evidence. Lee SJ, Ralston HJ, Drey EA, Partridge JC, Rosen MA. School of Medicine, Department of Anatomy, University of California, San Francisco, CA 94143-0648, USA. CONTEXT: Proposed federal legislation would require physicians to inform women seeking abortions at 20 or more weeks after fertilization that the fetus feels pain and to offer anesthesia administered directly to the fetus. This article examines whether a fetus feels pain and if so, whether safe and effective techniques exist for providing direct fetal anesthesia or analgesia in the context of therapeutic procedures or abortion. EVIDENCE ACQUISITION: Systematic search of PubMed for English-language articles focusing on human studies related to fetal pain, anesthesia, and analgesia. Included articles studied fetuses of less than 30 weeks' gestational age or specifically addressed fetal pain perception or nociception. Articles were reviewed for additional references. The search was performed without date limitations and was current as of June 6, 2005. EVIDENCE SYNTHESIS: Pain perception requires conscious recognition or awareness of a noxious stimulus. Neither withdrawal reflexes nor hormonal stress responses to invasive procedures prove the existence of fetal pain, because they can be elicited by nonpainful stimuli and occur without conscious cortical processing. Fetal awareness of noxious stimuli requires functional thalamocortical connections. Thalamocortical fibers begin appearing between 23 to 30 weeks' gestational age, while electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in preterm neonates probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks. For fetal surgery, women may receive general anesthesia and/or analgesics intended for placental transfer, and parenteral opioids may be administered to the fetus under direct or sonographic visualization. In these circumstances, administration of anesthesia and analgesia serves purposes unrelated to reduction of fetal pain, including inhibition of fetal movement, prevention of fetal hormonal stress responses, and induction of uterine atony. CONCLUSIONS: Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester. Little or no evidence addresses the effectiveness of direct fetal anesthetic or analgesic techniques. Similarly, limited or no data exist on the safety of such techniques for pregnant women in the context of abortion. Anesthetic techniques currently used during fetal surgery are not directly applicable to abortion procedures. This is the latest review I could find on Pubmed.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 10-11-2005 at 09:27 AM. Reason: citation addition, correction |
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10-11-2005, 10:59 AM | #404 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
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they should pass a law about dentists too... i've had my fill of the "oh, this won't hurt at all" business
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
10-11-2005, 11:54 AM | #405 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
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yeah, and MD's "this won't hurt"
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
10-11-2005, 11:58 AM | #406 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Thanks, inked - I'm glad that it is at least starting to be looked at by doctors.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-11-2005, 12:10 PM | #407 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
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And they know this because.......oh, a fetus e-mailed them. Re dic u lous.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
10-11-2005, 12:59 PM | #408 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I think it's something that any reasonable, feeling person would want to look into - unless, of course, they're driven by a personal agenda. Anyone who has had an infant knows they feel pain, and it's reasonable to think it develops in utero (as opposed to the instand they're born), and I would think a compassionate person (like most people on the Moot) would think this is worth looking into.
What amazes me, and IMO shows that a lot about this issue is personal agenda/bias, is the whole partial birth abortion issue. That as long as a full-term, fully viable baby still has its head inside the mother, it's open game for having its skull punctured, brains suctioned out, and then "gee, surprise!" it's dead when it's delivered! But if it accidentally slips out before they can do the procedure, then BY LAW the hospital staff has to strive to keep it alive - it somehow has obtained personhood. YES - we have to define the personhood issue somewhere - but let's err on the side of caution when we're talking about providing cheap pain relief! It just seems like abortion-rights activists are being dishonest with this issue because they don't want to lose their right to have an abortion. I can understand that, but I can't understand someone being willing to be a party to an un-anesthetized, possibly VERY painful death of the infant who didn't even ask to be involved in the issue
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-11-2005 at 01:00 PM. |
10-11-2005, 01:23 PM | #409 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-11-2005, 02:52 PM | #410 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
And I do insist that the person has control over their body - just prior to pregnancy is when they need assert it. You seem to recognize no such need for assertion unitl pregnancy results. Have I understood you properly?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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10-11-2005, 03:05 PM | #411 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
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ONCE AGAIN PEOPLE
STOP ATTACKING THE POSTER DEBATE THE ISSUE IN A CIVIL MANNER OR FACE CLOSING OF THE TOPIC.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Last edited by Spock : 10-11-2005 at 03:08 PM. |
10-11-2005, 03:16 PM | #412 |
Elf Lord
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yeah... the postal service is bad enough without attacks on innocent people trying to post their mail ...
regarding the civil manner ... does civil war count? seriously though you guys .... spock is right! though i have said previously i do not wish to engage on the issues here, i do welcome reading the debate ... so please all try and debate not debase each other's opinion. sure this is a controversial issue with genuinely opposing and firmly held beliefs on both sides ... but i, for one, am interested in reading about it - so keep it debatable (at the least - if you read that the other way as i just noticied ... ) |
10-11-2005, 03:30 PM | #413 | |||
Quasi Evil
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Quote:
Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-11-2005, 03:32 PM | #414 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i have a question for inked... earlier in this thread you mentioned that you weren't quite in favor of outlawing abortion after i mentioned the obvious consequences of teen aborters being put on death row in some states
how do you think it should be in the US?
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
10-11-2005, 05:14 PM | #415 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/18/opinion/18george.html&OQ=eiQ3D5070Q26enQ3Da09fa9d8d85db09f Q26exQ3D1129003200Q26pagewantedQ3Dprint&OP=4ffcfc1 2Q2F7Y_q7eyUp(yyV171Q5BQ5BQ237Q5B47Q2BT7y)HQ2FHyQ2 F7Q2BTd_y(d_9Q20VQ2AQ5D Robbie George wrote that The Supreme Court's "privacy jurisprudence" began in 1965, in Griswold v. Connecticut. By a vote of 7 to 2, the justices invalidated a state law forbidding the use of contraceptives by married couples. (Laws of this sort had been on the books for decades, though they were rarely if ever enforced and most had been repealed by legislatures.) Lacking a textual or historical warrant for invalidating the law, Justice William O. Douglas, writing for the majority, claimed to find a "right of marital privacy" in "penumbras, formed by emanations" from a range of constitutional guarantees, none of which had anything to do with sexual conduct. Douglas's quasi-metaphysical language elicited derision, and to this day remains an embarrassment to liberal constitutional jurisprudence. The justices would have done better to take the dissenting advice of Hugo Black, the court's leading civil libertarian. Black said that although he didn't like the law, the court was usurping the constitutional authority of legislatures by simply inventing a right that the nation's founders had not seen fit to enshrine. Griswold was controversial in legal academic circles, where some worried about where the court would go once it liberated itself from text and history. (Earlier forays of this sort - as when the court in 1905 struck down state worker-protection statutes - had not produced happy results.) But with anti-contraception laws unpopular, the ruling produced no public outcry, and the court relished its expanded role. In 1972 it extended what began as a right of marital privacy to unmarried people. And in 1973 the justices handed down Roe v. Wade, striking down state abortion laws nationwide. The Roe decision met not only with academic criticism - some of the sharpest coming from liberal scholars like Archibald Cox and John Hart Ely - but also with resistance from people who opposed abortion as a form of prenatal homicide. Although Justice Harry Blackmun, in the majority opinion, dispensed with the metaphysics of penumbras and emanations, he could not identify a compelling constitutional grounding for the right to abortion. He simply declared that the words "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law," in the Fourteenth Amendment, were "broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy." What Blackmun never told us, and couldn't tell us, is why the due process clause— which on its face is concerned with procedural matters—should be interpreted in this sweeping way. On what constitutional basis can we say that abortion is protected by "due process" but a right to assisted suicide - unanimously rejected by the court in 1997 - is not? Why is sodomy protected and prostitution unprotected? Why does the right to privacy not extend to polygamy or the use of recreational drugs? Clearly, it is not the Constitution that accounts for the outcomes in the court's "privacy" cases; it is simply the moral and political opinions of the justices. The nation will be fortunate if Judge Roberts understands that the result of the court's invention of a generalized right to privacy has been 40 years of unprincipled—and unpredictable—constitutional law. +++++++++
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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10-11-2005, 06:06 PM | #416 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Quote:
In the medically indicated reasons for the sake of the mother's health, I see this as a matter of triage and the dominant concern is given to the most likely to survive. So, when a patient is discovered to have a cervical cancer in pregnancy that requires radiation therapy to arrest it there are three possible choices: 1) to continue the pregnancy to viability, deliver, and treat (mother assumes risks, fetus spared); or, 2) to treat the cancer appropriately and let the effects of the treatment do as it will to the fetus/pregnancy (fetus and mother share risks); or, to terminate the pregnancy and treat the cancer (fetus sacrificed to minimize maternal risk and maximize treatment). Some patients will choose one of all of these. Most persons would argue that the patient's choice is paramount in this case. In consideration for rape victims, I think the patient's choice is paramount. Consideration for pregnancies involving a demonstrated genetic defect or incompatible with life syndrome, is, I think, again the patient's choice paramount. The problem for me personally becomes the use of elective terminations as a means of birth control. I understand that all birth control techniques have failure rates when used and used properly. But frankly, failure to use birth control at all is the chief reason for pregnancy. So abortion becomes de facto birth control. Data: UptoDate review "Surgical termination of pregnancy: First trimester" by Shulman, MD and Ling MD notes that the rate of pregnancy termination in the US has a prevalence of 16 per 1000 women aged 15 to 44 years in 2001 (per CDC) and that most terminations were performed in women under the age of 25 years (52%), Caucasian (55%), and unmarried (82%). The majority were in the first trimester with 59% less than or equal to 8 weeks and 88% less than or equal to 13 weeks. The review also notes that repeat pregnancy terminations account for ~36% of all induced abortions in Canada and ~48% of all induced abortions in the USA. What these data clearly indicate are a massive use of abortion as a contraceptive technique. I think there are better ways to prevent pregnancy than to utilize abortion as a contraceptive. Another option available is placement of the child for adoption. So, my personal bias is to legislate on behalf of life with the recognition of exceptional cases having abortion available under safe conditions, especially since reliable, safe techniques of contraception are available. Is that enough, BJ?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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10-11-2005, 06:44 PM | #417 |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
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I'm not BJ, but I just had to say - Inked - Enough? Is that enough? WAY too much, and not nearly enough. Using millions of words to say the same thing. Redundantly redundant. I wave my paw and say "bah."
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10-12-2005, 03:29 AM | #418 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
I agree with all of what you said, Inked You said that there are circumstances in which the mother's choice should be paramount, and rape would be one of those cases. Does this indicate that you regard the unborn child as qualitatively different from the born child? Clearly, one wouldn't kill the baby of a rape victim. In what way/s is the foetus different, in terms of rights, to a baby? |
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10-12-2005, 08:46 AM | #419 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-12-2005, 11:57 AM | #420 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
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Quote:
....what she said
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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