09-25-2006, 09:59 PM | #401 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I don't know if you could get the non-radicals to kill the radicals...there's that whole "non-radical" problem.
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09-25-2006, 10:15 PM | #402 | |
Elf Lord
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But I think omission that implies something different from what actually happened is a lie. Their omission is absolutely huge and from what's written, a peaceful Muslim expansion is implied. That is an untruth, and hence a lie.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-26-2006, 01:15 AM | #403 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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It says a "united and peaceful" community resulted, which I'm sure is technically true, that at one point early on, probably during the persecution, there was a united and peaceful community. Peruse the dictionaries; it is to make a false statement. American Heritage, Oxford, Cambridge, and Merriam-Webster's all say so. And, for a little extra tidbit: St. Thomas, Secunda Secundae, Question 110, Article 1, Respondeo: Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 09-26-2006 at 01:19 AM. |
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09-26-2006, 01:42 AM | #404 |
Elf Lord
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*Double post. This one is slightly less good, so I'm deleting the contents .*
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-26-2006 at 01:56 AM. |
09-26-2006, 01:55 AM | #405 | |||||
Elf Lord
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But Gwaimir, I think as we're talking about lies and honesty right now anyway, I've got to be honest about something. I can't debate with you anymore, for a period of time anyway. I'll explain over PM.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-26-2006 at 02:02 AM. |
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09-26-2006, 08:47 AM | #406 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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So, since it was an opinion not a statement, I'm off the hook. Also, the Moot hardly is "the public". All good things to you GW.
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09-26-2006, 12:04 PM | #407 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Lief,
If you look at dictionary definitions, you'll find that often they give as a definition of a word, a sense in which we would use that word analogously, and this is such a one as that. That which creates a false impression, I believe, is only called a lie in analogy to a true lie. You are right, upon second glance, that it refers to the time after Mohammed's death. But it's possible that the false statement is not made deliberately. I just don't think we should rush so quickly to judge the writers of this pamphlet.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
09-26-2006, 02:28 PM | #408 | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Quasi Evil
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I think this was from this thread...
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And honestly most Sunnis in Iraq would just assume have peace and not be marginalized by the other ethnic groups. But they don’t want to be targets of the Shiite death squads so of course they “support” their own ethnic militias. What choice do they have? Quote:
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Now if you want to say those cultures who have protests have issues well that’s something we can argue about. But NONE of those protesters murdered anybody so its essentially slander to associate them. Quote:
As for the responsibility of some protesters not to burn effigies and have mean signs well I think that’s much more debatable. Again, WE may find it abhorrent in our culture but theres plenty we do they find abhorrent as well. My thinking is as long as they are not all rushing out and killing random Christians then its ok free expression of their anger. And so far we only have one death. So if as you insist these kinds of protests were so wide spread then I would say you have made the argument that in fact they ARENT inherrintly violent to the extreme because they seem to draw a pretty clear line at not KILLING people. They could easily go after some westerners and string them up for effect but they don’t. they do their silly little flag burning and pope doll shoe hitting and leave it at that. But let me ask you this Hector. Lets say you had these protests and then you had local government forces react to them with extreme measures, smashing in heads and yanking protestors off the streets by the dozens only to be tortured and killed. Would you be satisfied with this or horrified? Would you think they deserved it or would you then find yourself defending their right to protest freely despite your distaste for their particular actions? Quote:
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Why are you now talking in sociological terms and no longer in the awful simpleton religious terms you were insisting on before? Quote:
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09-26-2006, 02:51 PM | #409 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Ok, let's see: Muslims blew up and destroyed holy Buddhist carvings; no Buddhist blew up a mosque.
Muslims decapitated Christians; no Christian decapitated a muslim. Muslims killed a Catholic Nun; no priest or official of catholic dogma killed any muslim. Riots, burnings, bombings, dancing in new clothes; all feature muslims, whether in Iraq, Iran, Gaza, Pakistan, etc. etc. etc. One might conclude then that muslims ARE to blame.
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09-26-2006, 03:09 PM | #410 |
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Muslims decided to leave for Pakistan at the formation of that state, Hindus then killed over 1,000,000 of them. Hence the radicalism in Pakistan.
There are reasons for all these things, Spock, and I don't think it's right to generalize the radicals' sentiments to all Muslims.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-26-2006 at 03:12 PM. |
09-26-2006, 04:57 PM | #411 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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1) Withdrawal of support from Israel...which is stupid since nobody has any right to tell us who and who not to support. 2) Pullout from Middle-East areas, including Iraq, which would result in a strong Iran taking over a weak Iraq. 3) If the world really worked by appeasing (and I don't say that that is always a bad thing), the world would never have had any wars, or very few. It's not our fault that Muslims in general can't stand Jews...it's their own fault. Quote:
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[quotes]Its disingenuous to say see this ONE is working so therefore I wasn’t speaking in sweeping generalizations because it certainly sounds to me from your words before this that you really feel Muslims in general and as a group have a real issue with violence and dealing with “modern” society.[/quote] Very sorry for my very true statements that the people protesting the pope were indeed Muslim...I hadn't said that a certain number were Muslim or not, I hadnt specified anything beyond their ethnicity...and you guys think this is enough to assume that I'm a bigot towards all muslims? Perhaps this will help illustrate my point a bit better: how many non catholics are there in a catholic church? Not many...but most of the people there ARE catholic. Let's see...how many non-muslims are there in Iraq? Not many...but most of the people there ARE Muslim. Beyond that: I think Muslims do tend to be more violent, whether it is because of their religion (or warped version of it compliments of the skippy ayatollahs...), or because of their upbringing... ...but It has nothing to do with whether or not I think Muslims ONLY want to be violent. Quote:
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Protesting is not bad. Extreme protesting has thus far constituted saying that you will; kill someone; hunt them down...and the general egging on of these actions. definitely extreme examples. Burning effigies and flags is also extreme. While it comes under non-violent silent protesting, the message, if it be for the intent and purpose of harm technically makes this form of protesting fall under the same extreme as saying you will kill etc... IMO, these actions are not VIOLENCE, but they are VIOLENT. Quote:
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I'm not trying to point out that Islam and Muslims throughout the ages have been and always will be 100% evil (unlike Ahmadinejad, who beleives that about the Jews)...but I would like to point out that things have not been well with the middle-east for quite some time. Quote:
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I'm not saying that's extreme though... Quote:
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HOW and WHAT they protest speaks of their opinions, do you not agree? Isn't that what protesting is supposed to show? Never did I make it an issue that you should only be allowed to protest if it's a peaceful message. Quote:
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[quotes]It takes the pope saying something that offends others to start your fire. You can see people overreacted to it but that doesn’t take away from the fact that someone of the popes stature should really be quite careful in what and how he says things so as to not risk people getting carried away and fires starting.[/quotes] By all standards the pope said it in the most delicate way he could. Not very reported is the fact that IN THE MANUSCRIPT he was quoting, the Emperor Manuel was having a discussion with a Muslim Persian king. I'm not sure, but I have a feeling that the persian king didn't produce a sign that said "kill him!" even if he was offended. Quote:
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Don't think that even peace-loving Muslims like this culture of ours, and I can't blame them from what they see externally. Quote:
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09-26-2006, 05:27 PM | #412 | |
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09-26-2006, 05:37 PM | #413 |
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Here' what we should really do, and it's non-violent too ...
Gather up all those radical ayatollahs and leaders etc...have them all come to the White House for a party, give them a few martinis, sit them down in a group and blast their ears with this: Bach
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09-26-2006, 07:05 PM | #414 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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Hector, I agree with most of your post. But I'm going to pick on the parts that I don't. Quote:
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For the surrounding Arab nations, if they had accepted the Palestinians into their territory, this would have destabilized their economies. Lebanon did just this, accepting a significant number of people onto its soil, and its economy suffered as a result of the large influx of people. This was the original injustice that caused the whole Israeli-Palestinian crisis which has endured over so much time. Since then, in later wars, Israel has occupied more land by "right of conquest." They stifle the Palestinians with economic embargos and sometimes have purposefully smashed up the Palestinian economy. Operation Rainbow, a recent Israeli military operation, was notorious for that. They destroyed schools and banks and numerous other civilian targets. Israel uses torture in its prisons and drops cluster bombs as its final punishment act over large civilian populations in Lebanon. There are a million cluster bombs left unexploded in the civilian cities of Lebanon now, since Israel's campaign there. I know that Israel has to defend itself and that the Arab nations surrounding it have attacked it more than once. This doesn't justify many of the harsh, strong-arm tactics they've engaged in, and those tactics are a key part of what's causing such hatred against Israel.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-26-2006 at 11:04 PM. |
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09-27-2006, 09:07 AM | #415 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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...fact.....there are more verses for violence and forceful conversion or killing non-muslims in the quran than there are peaceful advocates.
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09-27-2006, 12:04 PM | #416 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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And by 'peaceful advocates', do you mean verses advocating peace, or Muslims advocating peace?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
09-27-2006, 12:17 PM | #417 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Thanks for catching that, when written I was in a hurry-what else is new. Actually it can mean both. Verses and muslims speaking out.
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09-27-2006, 01:16 PM | #418 |
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Here's another modern dispute between Muslims and our free society. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5385058.stm
Rather like the Danish cartoons row, though obviously on a much smaller scale.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
09-27-2006, 01:18 PM | #419 |
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I don't find what and what not the Koran says very relavent; because either way, some form of Radical Islam is being spread/taught.
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09-27-2006, 01:45 PM | #420 | |
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Could someone please affirm the fact that the British had captured a portion of what is now Israel during WWI from Turkey?
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