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#401 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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I'd like to respond to that, but I'm just out of gas right now ...
I'll make my last post for the day here with a saying that I like - "The universe was created out of the laughter of the Trinity" ![]()
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#402 |
Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: College!
Posts: 1,976
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Just curious...atheistic evolutionists say that the first life was bacteria, evolving into fish, right? And then the fish evolved into land animals, right?
Well then why did plants come about? I can see no benefit as per Natural Selection for a creature to unevolve sentinence and root itself in one place. What benefit would an animal get by eventually turning into a mushroom? (not to use hyperbole, but... ![]()
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Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan) |
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#403 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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![]() One important thing to note is that evolution isn't linear. I think of it as a tree. At the bottom - single-celled organisms (I don't think they were only bacteria.) Branching off, small multi-celled organisms (like plankton, I think). Millions of years later, branching off again from the different multi-celled organisms, would be rudimentary fish and I believe, plants. One thing evolution does not do is bacteria -> magical evolving in one generation -> fish. Basically, evolution doesn't go A -> B -> C. It kind of goes A -> B and C; B -> D; C -> E, F, and G; etc etc IIRC, 99% (or maybe it was 95%) of species that have ever existed are now extinct. There have been 5 mass-extinction events, though they are not responsible for all extinctions. Animals and mushrooms have a common ancestor way back when, but one did not evolve into the other. That is why they are in different Kingdoms (the highest order of taxonomy [classification of organisms]). Similairly, fish didn't evolve into plants. They too have a common ancestor way back when. As to why it would be benificial to be a plant, well, just think of it! You get to just sit there and absorb nutrients! You don't have to swim around all day trying to get food - an excercise which doesn't always get you a dinner. Being rooted in one place has its disadvantages too, but all the plant species alive today have found the benefits are greater than the costs. (The ones that found otherwise went extinct.) I hope I'm doing an adequate job of explaining Evolution. I love this theory, I don't want to mangle it.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#404 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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#405 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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#406 | |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
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Hello my dear debaters. The internet in my dorm room or on my computer (I can't tell which) has ceased to work. Therefore a) I'm not going to be here near as much because I have to do it on our computers in our computer lab, which is a big hassle and b) I am very sad.
So, I've just read the past 4 pages, and I could probably go on for about, oh, three full posts if I wanted to say everything. But I really don't have time or patience for that. So, a partial effort. Plants and Animals, and the other 3 kingdoms are the most basic division between creatures. These split off so long ago that we don't know when precisely. But no animal suddenly decided to put down roots... in fact, it is probably more likely that the common ancestor was stationary and the animals developed the ability to move. Fortunately BJ has pretty much covered again the difference between observable things we can compare with our own intelligence and things we can't. Intelligent design is not the same type of intelligence as ours, because we can't do that or anything like it, nor do we know of anyone proven to exist who can. If we observed (scientifically) God or some other being capable of it, I would say indeed that ID was scientific. But without that, no. And this is not being "hung up on the supernatural being" - the supernatural being is at the core of the idea. It's like talking about evolution and saying "don't get so hung up on the causation-by-natural-processes-alone idea." And God not being observed makes postulating His or Her or Its existence a MUCH more complicated theory than any theory using already known causation. A platypus is a monotreme. There are actually quite a few of them. It's not that unlikely that they evolved, except in the sense that any particular individual result of a millenia (billenia? ![]() ID does indeed say "here we don't understand - here, therefore, is God" - except it says intelligent designer instead. The entire theory is based on the idea that what evolution cannot explain should be explained by an intelligent designer, and that what it can explain should be explained by evolution. It's just that we disagree about macroevolution. It really is filling perceived gaps with a supernatural (above-nature) being. I'm sure Discovery Institute (Nurv, I know Cascadia is poorly defined - it's an odd concept - but the Cascades are used because WASHINGTON has only the one range and we're provincial ![]() Speaking of which, without the flippancy about "I'm gonna make me a lemur", Krauthammer is actually fairly accurate about the current state of ID. Quote:
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
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#407 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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As I told Nurvi, I'm done with explanatory responses for the night (altho there's a lot I want to respond to in your post), but sorry about your computer, Count, and I hope your sadness is just because of my stubbornness and not anything more serious *Moothug*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#408 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
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I know you're done. Hence my getting in (my only) cheap shot
![]() ![]() Problem is, I really don't think either of us is going to convince the other. I've read about ID, not only from anti-sites but from pro-sites and pro-people. You've clearly read about evolution, from both sides. If we're not convinced now, what are the odds that'll happen by some miraculous occurrence? Oh, right, we'll observe an intelligent designer... and that'd only work one way ![]() *Moothug back*
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
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#409 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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(hee hee! Yes, God would be pretty convincing, wouldn't He?!)
Oh, I still think these types of discussions are valuable. I know I've learned a lot, and have had to think through a lot of things, and I've seen others willing to think and examine things, too. And hopefully you evolutionists have seen that there is at least one IDer/creationist who is intelligent, willing to think with an open mind, and of course incredibly good-looking, too ![]() ME, in case you were wondering! ![]() (did my word game post make you smile?)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#410 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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I just want to say, that this thread really rocks.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#411 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#412 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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#413 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
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Inflected Form(s): plural hy·poth·e·ses Etymology: Greek, from hypotithenai to put under, suppose, from hypo- + tithenai to put -- more at D
1 a : an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument b : an interpretation of a practical situation or condition taken as the ground for action 2 : a tentative assumption made in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences ------------------------------ the·o·ry Pronunciation: 'thE-&-rE, 'thi(-&)r-E Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -ries Etymology: Late Latin theoria, from Greek theOria, from theOrein 1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another 2 : abstract thought : SPECULATION 3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory> 4 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn> b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances -- often used in the phrase in theory <in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all> 5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <wave theory of light> IMO posters here are doing BOTH ![]()
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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#414 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#415 | |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
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Rian, the jokes always make me laugh
![]() As did that last post. Quote:
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. Last edited by Spock : 11-22-2005 at 05:24 PM. |
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#416 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
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Even the Vatican gave ID the thumbs down. *ouch*
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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#417 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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*waves to Cirdan* Hey, good to see you back. ![]()
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#418 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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but even "something out of something" is unscientific when the cause of that change is unobservable or impliable from observed causes it is like my star example: Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#419 | ||||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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My point with "something out of something" is that this could occur without violating the ideas of ID. Quote:
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#420 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Quote:
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__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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