12-16-2003, 10:35 PM | #401 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Quote:
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
12-17-2003, 01:42 AM | #402 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Quote:
But, as has been said, it's an internal matter for the believers. A note on celibacy- AFAIK Judaism requires rabbis to be married. Quote:
Further checking shows that only Orthodox Judaism still considers it absolutely necessary, but Conservative and Reform very strongly recommend it.
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
||
12-17-2003, 02:05 AM | #403 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
12-17-2003, 03:34 AM | #404 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Speaking of Judaism, has any one read The Chosen by Chiam Potok? (Its sequel is The Promise.) Awesome books, about Jewish people obviously.
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
||
12-17-2003, 09:40 AM | #405 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
||
12-17-2003, 09:40 AM | #406 | |||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 12-17-2003 at 09:46 AM. |
|||
12-17-2003, 09:51 AM | #407 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
|
12-17-2003, 10:14 AM | #408 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
on the flip side... may religious "truths" are very easy to refute... and to be fair, so are many non-religious "truths"... all in all, i think catholicism contains more good than bad... i think this is true of all the prominent religions (muslim, hindu, buddism)... but that does not mean they are 100% good... saying everything should be questioned does not necessarily mean that everything is questionable... i prefer eclecticism over ecclesiasticism
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
12-17-2003, 11:33 AM | #409 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
|
12-17-2003, 11:35 AM | #410 | ||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 126
|
Much Ado About "Pish Posh"
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
||
12-17-2003, 11:48 AM | #411 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 126
|
Ordination
Gwaimir, I think the main difference between Lewis and Catholic doctrine is demonstrated by this line from Lewis’ article:
Quote:
A sacrament is a visible sign of an invisible reality. The sacraments are founded on the history of God’s revelation to his people, and most importantly on the incarnation--the Word made flesh. God does enter into the world He created to lead all people to salvation. The incarnation not only signifies that the world was made good and that God longs to bring us to Himself, but that the world is worthy to contain in itself the invisible reality of the creator--to be a vessel of the divine. The sacraments, then are the continuing signs that God still enters into the world He created, so that His light might “shine out of darkness,” but “we hold this treasure in earthen vessels” (2 Cor 4:6,7)--humble things such as water and chrism, bread and wine, and frail human bodies. Sacraments, then are not just a re-enacting of an historical event or a passion play for edification. Sacraments are the entering of God into our world under real visible signs. The Eucharist for a Catholic is not just bread and wine and a passion play re-enacting the last supper, but is the real presence, the body and blood, of Jesus Christ, the presence of his timeless sacrifice that brings us to salvation. Baptism isn’t just an initiation ceremony where we make babies cry by splashing cold water on their heads, but is a real transformation of a person’s soul by the power of God contained in the visible signs of water and chrism. In the sacred bond between a man and woman in holy matrimony, God is truly present through all of their expressions of love. For me, this has very powerful spiritual implications. God not just enters my life as some distant mystical force in the cosmos, but in a very personal and physical way. God uses not just our intellects to touch our lives, but uses His very creation, our world and our bodies; He contacts me, so to speak, through the earthen vessels of water and chrism, bread and wine, in the loving support of my wife, and even through her caresses, her smiles, and her just being here with me and our children. Through marriage, I become an earthen vessel of God’s love for my wife in the same way, a way that incorporates all aspects of our lives together. As a sacrament, then, ordination is not just the hiring of someone as an administrator, teacher, or even as a preacher. Ordination signifies that God uses the priest as a visible and intimate sign of His invisible presence. The priest is not just a representative of God, but acts in persona Christi. When the priest lifts the host and says the words of institution at Mass, Jesus Christ is truly present in the priest’s words. When the priest reads the Gospel at Mass, it is Jesus Christ, Himself, speaking through the priest to His people, personally teaching us His wisdom. When the priest says the words of absolution at Confession, it is not the priest speaking, but Jesus Christ, who is sacramentally present, who is speaking through the priest. cont.
__________________
Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan Last edited by Guillaume le Maréchal : 12-17-2003 at 11:57 AM. |
|
12-17-2003, 12:00 PM | #412 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
|
12-17-2003, 12:01 PM | #413 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Quote:
He was simply an articulate, educated, thinking man (and a layman at that), who became a Christian later in life - and who wrote extensively. I personally think that much of what he wrote is very sound, but he wasn't actually speaking as an official representative of any particular church. |
|
12-17-2003, 12:14 PM | #414 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 126
|
Gwaimir... LOL... we are on the same sheat of music... I realized the error and edited that particular statement probably while you were in the process of posting
Nice catch, btw
__________________
Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
12-17-2003, 12:18 PM | #415 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
EDIT: since this thread has grown... I'll explain. The original question was: how do you feel about women as priests?
Quote:
Firstly, the bible was written in a time in which women were generally chattel, they could own no property, make no decision on their own, and followed orders of their husbands or fathers or even brothers (whoever was the head male of the family she belonged to). Second, you want me to believe that because of a book written ages ago, and because Lewis thinks women have nothing relevant and intellectual to discuss that I'm going to buy that piece of tripe? Let's get real!!! Women can ballance their checkbooks, run their families, run their businesses, go to war, fix their cars. And that archaic view that we want men to take over for us, is bull sh... "pish posh". Last edited by Ruinel : 12-17-2003 at 12:22 PM. |
|
12-17-2003, 12:22 PM | #416 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Guillaume le Maréchal ~ i didn't call it pish-posh (as a matter a fact, i doubt i've even used that expression before ), i believe it was Ruinel... i said that it was a dangerous way to think... believing in absolute truths is fine and well when they're truths accepted by society at large... when they are not, is when the problems arise
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
12-17-2003, 12:23 PM | #417 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 126
|
Hang in there, Ruinel. I'm in the process of writing the continuation of my above post.
__________________
Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
12-17-2003, 12:24 PM | #418 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
Quote:
|
|
12-17-2003, 12:24 PM | #419 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
But Ruinel, do you see validity for it within a church which accepts the Bible as the basis for its beliefs?
And, btw, my own church does ordain women (and with what we believe to be a scriptural basis) - we have throughout our 100 +/- year history. Still, not many women pursue this (and less now, ironically, than 100 years ago). Also - I certainly understand those churches which do otherwise... (EDIT: Whew... I'm 3-4 posts down! Shoulda quoted your post) Last edited by Valandil : 12-17-2003 at 12:25 PM. |
12-17-2003, 12:33 PM | #420 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 126
|
Ordination
The sacraments are perceptible signs (words and actions... the form) accessible to our human nature through real objects (the species). By the action of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit they make present in a real and endearing manner the grace they signify. As such, the sacraments are recognizable by means of perceptibly identifiable criteria: the form and species. We know, for example, that the Eucharist is indeed the sacramental real presence of Jesus Christ because an ordained priest follows the form of the Eucharist liturgy and consecrates unleavened bread and wine. We know that baptism is the sacramental real presence of God’s saving grace by the use of real water (the species) and the words “I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” (the form).
If we were to substitute either the form or the species of a given sacrament, the sacrament no longer remains identifiable. If the sacrament is not identifiable, then it would no longer be a perceptibly visible sign; if this is so, then it would no longer be a perceptibly visible sign of the invisible reality of God’s presence. Thus, it would no longer be a sacrament. If a priest consecrates a Ritz cracker, such a species is not identifiably the Eucharist, and thus the sacrament is invalid. If a deacon were to baptize a child in the name of Homer Simpson, such a form is not identifiably the sacrament of Baptism, and thus the sacrament is invalid. If two men were to be married by a priest, such a species is not identifiably the sacrament of marriage, and thus the sacrament is invalid (a shot at those in the G/L/B thread ); etc., etc., etc. Both form and species of the sacraments are not randomly chosen by the Church, but are those presented to the Church in her Tradition, most specifically in the Scriptures. The form of the Eucharist is the words of institution, not because they sound good, but because these were the words used by Jesus. The species of the Eucharist isn’t unleavened bread and wine because they taste good or are easy to preserve, but because Jesus, Himself, used unleavened bread and wine. The species of baptism is water, because the use of water is stipulated by both Scripture and Tradition; the species of marriage, man and woman, is stipulated by Scripture and Tradition. The use of certain forms and species is so because there must be continuity not just throughout the history of the Church, but continuity with the words and actions of Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit through the People of God. If the sacraments are to be real visible signs of an invisible reality, Christians must admit real differences between words spoken and physical objects used. It must be admitted that there are real differences between Ritz crackers and unleavened bread, between Koolaid and wine, between water and sand, between chrism and motor oil, and, yes, between man and woman. This isn’t an issue of equality, its an issue of species. Both Scripture and Tradition stipulate that the species of ordination is a man. To substitute this would render the sacrament something other than the perceptible sign it ought to be, and thus invalid. cont.
__________________
Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
[TB?] News Thread | trolls' bane | General Messages | 35 | 06-22-2007 03:33 AM |
Buddy's Thread | Ruinel | General Messages | 57 | 02-11-2004 12:10 AM |
The Entmoot Presidential Debate | Darth Tater | Entmoot Archive | 163 | 12-06-2002 09:44 PM |
The Anti-theist Thread | afro-elf | General Messages | 1123 | 05-09-2002 03:46 PM |
Let Gandalf smite the Abortion thread! | Gilthalion | General Messages | 7 | 08-27-2000 02:52 PM |