04-07-2005, 11:16 PM | #401 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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If you think I wouldn't have a problem with that statement, then apparently you just don't understand my posts on the subject. I give up trying to explain it to you - apparently I just can't express myself well enough for you to understand.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-07-2005, 11:30 PM | #402 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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BASICALLY you have said that when you have disgreements - your husband has the final word. And unless it's morally wrong - you have no problkem with it and feel that it's proper because god made it that way. The other stuff where you try to justify this stance isn't much importance to me to tell you the truth - it's about who has final say in decisions and several times you said that your husband does.
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04-07-2005, 11:32 PM | #403 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Husband: Let's send our son to military school! Wife: I know he spray painted a car, but I don't think this would help. Husband: What do you think would help? Wife: I think he should pay for the damage out of his own pocket. Husband: That is a better idea. We'll do that. or this: Husband: Let's send our son to military school! Wife: I know he spray painted a car, but I don't think this would help. Husband: What do you think would help? Wife: I think he should pay for the damage out of his own pocket. Husband: Hmm, let's think about that, and you think about my idea. *lots of discussion follows, with lots of prayer and talking with others, and new options come up from both sides, and further discussion follows, because this is an important topic, and both husband and wife should be able to fully express their opinions in the matter* Wife: Well, we've talked it over and we still disagree, but it's time to decide because we have to turn in applications, so hon, I now turn it over to you for the final decision, and I'll back you 100%, even if I disagree with your decision, because neither one of us can know which one is really better anyway. I think both have positives and negatives, and either one will work out, altho I may have a different opinion about which one is better. But I now turn things over to you to decide. Husband: I really value your input, and it's given me lots of helpful things to think about. I know we both love our son, and want what is best for him. At this point, I think military school is the best option. Let's go for that, and re-assess the situation in a few months.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-07-2005, 11:36 PM | #404 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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04-08-2005, 12:06 AM | #405 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(and btw, before this thread, were YOU, personally, aware of the verse telling the husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church? or were you just aware of the submission verse?) My choice to comply with this idea is based on my beliefs, just as those who choose to NOT comply with this idea base THEIR decision on THEIR beliefs. If a person doesn't BELIEVE in the God described in the Bible, then I certainly would see no reason why they would choose to model Biblical submission in their marriage. My stance on this issue doesn't exist in a vacuum ("vacuum" as in lack of air, NOT the cleaning tool! ). It has context. Did you see my 5 posts on why I personally believe Christianity is true? I did NOT pick up a slip of paper that says "wives submit to your husbands" and say, "hey, I think I'll believe that!" My choice to go along with this concept of submission is just that - a CHOICE - based upon an extensive and careful evaluation of the Christian worldview and other worldviews such as atheism. When you say, "How much is this through religious doctrine...", it seems like you are implying that I haven't thought about it - is that so? I know many Christians, as well as many atheists, who have NOT carefully thought through and evaluated and analyzed their beliefs. I'm NOT one of them. I've given a LOT of thought to this issue, and to the context surrounding the issue, and I believe that it is a right and good thing. I don't think anyone should do what they think is wrong, whether it's in their "religious doctrine" or not. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-08-2005, 12:09 AM | #406 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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04-08-2005, 12:17 AM | #407 |
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JD - now cut it out! Us Christian guys finally have a good thing going - and here you're trying to RUIN it for us!!
(my wife made me say that)
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04-08-2005, 12:20 AM | #408 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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04-08-2005, 01:59 AM | #409 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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So anyway, Nurvs, did I clear up for you that I think that the leadership of the husband has NOTHING to do with his somehow being a superior being? I sure hope that is totally clear. I repeat that I think women are AMAZING beings, and so are men, and they are totally equal in the sight of God as far as value. They have EQUAL opportunity to do well with whatever abilities they have, or to choose to abuse their abilities. They are BOTH responsible to do what they think is right, and answerable to God if they don't. They are EQUAL partners, with the right of final decision making going to the husband while they are living in this world (the next world, the one we'll spend eternity in, is a different story. As Jesus pointed out, there is no marriage in heaven. Marriage is something specially and uniquely designed for our blessing while we are living out our short life here on this earth. As the old song says, we're only visiting this planet )
It's late; I'll address your question tomorrow, Chrys.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-08-2005, 05:32 AM | #410 | |
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Last edited by Butterbeer : 04-08-2005 at 05:39 AM. |
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04-08-2005, 05:37 AM | #411 |
Elf Lord
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don't know why all above is in Quote mode: sorry - my replies are below the bold entries, just to avoid any confusion!
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04-08-2005, 05:57 AM | #412 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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BTW - you gave a nice summary of my position when you mentioned it. But the other thing si that you told her to redefine the word for us - and then told her she couldn't. I would prefer her to call it what it is when a person has final say, instead of trying to twist it around.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 04-08-2005 at 05:59 AM. |
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04-08-2005, 06:00 AM | #413 | |
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all this militray school thing is weird ( i know it is just a scenario) when i spray painted my mum's car she took a photo and put it in her scrapbook, mind you i dont think we have 'military schools' in england, aside from actually joining the army, and the car was my art project, anyway |
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04-08-2005, 06:03 AM | #414 | ||||
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04-08-2005, 06:35 AM | #415 | ||
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I get it now... and yet I don't. I see what you mean, but I still don't understand all of it.
I understand that someone can be a leader without somehow being superior. We see this a lot in everyday life. However, I'm having difficulty with this concept in a marriage of two equal people where one is in charge, though not superior. It works and it doesn't. My brain... hurts...
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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04-08-2005, 06:42 AM | #416 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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04-08-2005, 07:02 AM | #417 | |||
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Hehe. Acquiesced is a great word, it should be used more often. It brings to mine that great Pirates of the Caribbean quote... "I'm afraid I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request." I don't think it's akin to a parent-child relationship. He's the head of the household, not her dad, as R*an said at the beginning of page 20, "Yes, he's the leader of our household. That does NOT mean I don't have any say in things, or that I"m second class." I understand this concept anyway, though I can't see myself practicing it. I think we mainly learn about marriage from our parents. We won't always agree with our parents' way of doing things, but I think to a certain degree we 'inherit' it from them. I think I understand the whole concept now. I wish I had noticed your "head of the household" quote before. I think both my grandparents had this kind of structure, but at least one set was not practicing Biblical submission. The other set, perhaps. edited to add paragraph breaks
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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04-08-2005, 07:07 AM | #418 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 04-08-2005 at 07:09 AM. |
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04-08-2005, 07:35 AM | #419 | ||||
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Now, I don't agree with this idea, but it is not a load of bull. It's an idea that has been well-thought out (at least by R*an) and practiced by many. You and I don't find it useful, but other people do. My goal here was to understand what Biblical submission was in general and what R*an's views on it were. I think I have grasped the concept now so I'm happy to either move along, or keep talking about the fine points - whatever you guys decide. Quote:
I also come from a house where we talked about important decisions, but my parents had the final say. They would, out of love for us, sometimes let us have the final say, like the time I quit piano. Thus far, it seems akin to Biblical submission, but the similarities end here. The reason my parents had the final say is because they are more mature than my brother and I. The reason the husband would have the final say in a marriage with Biblical submission is because the wife allows this to be so. If either of them did not believe in Biblical submission, it would not be part of the marriage. For example, buying a car with different family structures: Parents with kids: When we bought our Volvo 10 years ago, my borther and I were about 10 and 11, and all we knew about the car was that it was a blue station wagon with a sunroof. (That's not the knowledge base one should use to buy a car.) Plus, a decision like this is the responsibility of the parents, not 10-year-olds. Marriage without Biblical submission: If my husband and I were buying a car, we will both have an equal say in the final decision. Both of us know something about cars (I would research more in the event of buying a car though), and we are both mature enough to be responsible for such an important decision (otherwise we wouldn't be married). He would probably contribute more knowledge since knowing things about cars is one of his hobbies and he hopes to be a mechanic. If we were buying a forestry machine, I would contribute more knowledge. However, in either case, we would make the decision together. Marriage with Biblical submission: The scenario would be exactly the same as above except for one important difference. (This is imagining that my husband and I from the above example do believe in Biblical submission.) Instead of making the decision together, my husband, in the final analysis, would consider all the knowledgeand research we both contributed, and both of our opinions, for the final decision. If we were buying a forestry machine, he might say I could make the final decision.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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04-08-2005, 07:37 AM | #420 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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