11-03-2004, 11:46 PM | #401 |
the Shrike
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That was terrible... That must have been like a shoe crime or something.
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11-04-2004, 12:56 AM | #402 |
Elf Lord
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Let us hope it remains a 'sole' crime!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
11-04-2004, 04:13 AM | #403 | ||
Elf Lord
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On a different note, I found something very interesting at the following site: Figurative interpretations Here is what I am referring to: Quote:
There is no end-all answer to these problems that would quiet them. You can't be sure it was originally intended that way (though I would say the same of literal interpretations), and you don't know where to stop. These things are problems, but in my typical Hindu fashion, I also consider them glorious things. These problems insure that figurative language interpretations are not always clearly the right to go. But they also indicate that the answers are up to us. We have to figure it out for ourselves. I like that. Anyway I don't belong to either extreme view. I think somethings must be taken literally, and others figuratively.
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Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 11-04-2004 at 04:34 AM. |
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11-04-2004, 06:42 AM | #404 | |||
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Lol Inked, very punny! All hail Mr Shoe and the prophet Shoelace!
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About Moloch, I'm not quite sure where you're going with that Rian. I think we all agree that killing babies is wrong. I feel pleased that I got the gist of what Ñólendil was saying about it! Your posts are very detailed and interesting.
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11-04-2004, 11:54 AM | #405 |
Elf Lord
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If I may interject: I think Rian was getting at the inability to truly maintain that all religions are equally true because of the belief systems being maintainably in contradiction to one another. It is patently ridiculous to assert that. It only works if you have nice intellectualized religions withut the apparent sacrificial components or such components as have been disassociated from their basis.
If you assert that all religions are equally valid means to GOD, then you must believe that child sacrifice is an acceptable expression of that religious impulse to which all are partakers (particularly those who need to relate by denying the existence of God!). If you cannot accept child sacrifice as acceptable, then you must analyze why? which gets you to the negation of the original statement. All religions are no more created equal than persons are created equal (the specific legal fiction for political purposes does not assert the equality in all of personhood). So,...?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
11-04-2004, 04:10 PM | #406 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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What I'm trying to get at here is to find out from you, a Hindu (altho Hindu is a term that covers lots of beliefs!) where "the rubber meets the road" in our life here and now. Meditation, philosophizing, etc. is all fine and dandy (and VERY needful, too, IMHO), but if it's all or mostly in the head, then to me, there's something wrong/lacking with that worldview. I wanted to see where Hinduism falls in terms of practical, actual, helping people in need. Does it say to tell a hungry person, "your hunger is imaginary" or "you'll have food in your next incarnation", or does it say "give the person some food". Do the leaders sit in a temple and say "everyone should have food" but do nothing about it, or do they get their Hindu hineys (said with respect and a dash of humor ) out there and help give some out? And it seems that the caste system hinders this So I was just looking for some more info on this subject - a very important one to me.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-04-2004 at 04:18 PM. |
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11-04-2004, 04:14 PM | #407 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And I have an entirely logical reason why you guys (or me, either, for that matter! Sorry, IRex! ) can't accept child sacrifice. Do you?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-04-2004, 05:13 PM | #408 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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There's a story in the Bible (can't remember which one!) when God asks someone to kill their child as a sacrifice to him. The father and son travelled up the mountain and just as the father was a bout to kill the son, God said something along the lines of;
"Stop. Do not kill your child. This was a test of your love to me." I think in Christianity (I'm not sure about Hinduism) that God wants to know that you will do even that for him, although he does not want you to do it.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
11-04-2004, 05:25 PM | #409 | ||
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Woah... I know that story! But I forget everyone's names too... wasn't the son Isaac? Oh boy. I think that test was a special case.
If God told me to kill my child, I wouldn't even bring him/her to the mountain. But maybe you had to be there... sometimes the Old Testament confuses me. No one said reading the Bible was easy! (I will do this... eventually... )
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11-04-2004, 05:32 PM | #410 |
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Yes Nurv, the child was Isaac. You'll find the story in Genesis. The father was Abraham... and Isaac was his 'child of promise'. I think he was specifically told to sacrifice him on the mountain... and an angel actually stayed his hand.
It is a curious story... but it was perhaps a test of whether Abraham was willing to trust God and obey Him, even when it seemed unreasonable. Indeed, Abraham was thinking that God might raise Isaac from the dead after the fact. Also... interesting from a Christian viewpoint is that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son for God... and that God was willing at a later time to sacrifice His Son for us all! And God indeed did raise HIM from the dead!
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11-04-2004, 05:50 PM | #411 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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A very interesting story - I was wondering if someone was going to bring it up. There's a lot going on there - I'd like to comment more later, but no time now.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-04-2004, 06:12 PM | #412 | |||||
Elf Lord
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The idea, as I have stated with the Mr. Shoe statement, is that, as far as religions go, you need faith, and ideas of real love and joy that you strive for in your life. The Moloch followers mentioned here don't fit in with this model, because any idea of real love and joy, coupled with faith in these things, would prevent them from murdering infants. I don't call it religion in this case, I call it delusion. I can ammend the statement if you like, to include this Mr. Shoe idea. But I think it is already there. Quote:
Hinduism is not a euphamism for Empty Thoughts, may I say. The fundamental decency of human beings is there. We are encouraged to see the Lord of Love in every being, and to treat eachother with this in mind. I don't know, Rian. Do you really need scriptural reference to believe this? Quote:
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11-04-2004, 06:36 PM | #413 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-04-2004, 07:47 PM | #414 | |
Elf Lord
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And what of the heart of Hinduism? No good? You seemed in doubt just minutes before, about whether compassionate acts, such as caring for the poor and hungry, were encouraged in Hinduism. Have I alleviated your doubts, passed the test?
I can't think of anything positive to say. I am reminded of a quote from Thich Nhat Hanh: Quote:
So I turn back to what is a wonderful point: "Discussing God is not the best use of our energy." To me, this is very true. What can we learn of God, by discussing God? We learn more about eachother, which isn't a bad thing, but I feel this talk has gone in the wrong direction. I have been in the hotseat for some time now--I think it is time someone else takes it.
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11-04-2004, 07:50 PM | #415 | ||
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Well I really enjoyed your posts Ñólendil! It was very... dare I say... enlightening? Thanks for taking all the time and effort to write so well and so passionately!
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-04-2004, 07:53 PM | #416 |
King of Nargothrond
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As have I...Hinduism was not a religion I was particularly well versed in, thanks for the insight.
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11-04-2004, 07:53 PM | #417 |
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Telling of our thoughts and feelings is quite pleasant. "Debate 101" is not.
IThank you so much for your time, Nolendil. I learned quite a bit. Nice to get a different version of religion than the christian version. I almost forget there are other relgions out there sometimes.
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11-04-2004, 08:26 PM | #418 | |||
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I know a little bit about you, because we've chatted a bit, and I think you are compassionate. I don't know much about Hinduism on the subject of compassion, so that's why I asked you about it. I do know about the caste system a little, which from what I can tell, arose because of an integral part of Hinduism. So I'm trying to find out more from you, because I'm not really aware of a strong outreach to the poor aspect of Hinduism, and you're in touch with teachers and scriptures of Hinduism that could shed some light on it. See, I know that you are compassionate; what I don't know is if your compassion has increased because of what Hinduism teaches, and I'm trying to find out. For example, do you do anything for the poor, and if so, have you done more since you became a Hindu? (you don't need to answer this.) I wanted to see if you had changed that way because of Hinduism. Quote:
I'm sorry if I come across like I have a monopoly on the truth; I tend to get over-analytical sometimes, and because we're typing, not talking or in person, all you see sometimes is the analytical, and not the heart. I don't blame you for getting angry I'm sorry, I'm just a twit sometimes But I don't see anything wrong with a person thinking they're right - after all, Lizra thinks she's right that there's no God, or else she wouldn't be an atheist, right? She thinks I'm totally wrong, and has told me so many times, but I don't blame her, and I CERTAINLY don't look down on her - if she thinks she's right, then she must think I'm wrong - so what? Personally, I believe that the Christian worldview is the correct description of actual reality. It's no kudos to me that I believe it. People have beliefs because they think they're right. I don't have any beliefs that I think are wrong - how could I? And how could you? Quote:
To me, a friend is a friend, regardless of their beliefs. I hope you feel that we're still friends, Falmon of the Waves.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-04-2004 at 08:45 PM. |
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11-04-2004, 08:32 PM | #419 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-04-2004, 08:41 PM | #420 |
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Why should I open my own thread when this one exists?
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