10-11-2004, 08:34 AM | #401 |
The Intermittent One
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in the news in UK at mo' is that some people seem to think that
Bush was wearing a wire, and was being fed the answers to any tricky questions that came up in debate - what do american mooters think on this subject? |
10-11-2004, 08:34 AM | #402 | |||||||
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Anyway, I don't agree with anti-american statements, even if they come from a party that I like most of the time (the Liberals). I think there's a very important difference between disagreeing with a policy made by the American government, and having anti-american statements. The first is good and usefull, the second is pointless and damages our relationship. We're neighbours, and if we disagree (which we will) we need to do it in a mature way so that we still respect each other. People don't listen to people they don't respect, or to people who don't respect them. Quote:
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10-11-2004, 08:57 AM | #403 | |
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10-11-2004, 09:16 AM | #404 | |
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(no offence intended toward Bush-supporters, but he is rather stupid) |
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10-11-2004, 09:40 AM | #405 | |
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If I'm right, what does that say of those who 'buy into' those persistent media portrayals? As for the suggestion of Bush being prompted, IMHO, THAT would be harder to pull off than being actually prepared to give a real-life answer.
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10-11-2004, 09:42 AM | #406 |
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quick clarification, I actually meant Bush is portrayed as being stupid, as i have never met the man, i can not comment
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10-11-2004, 09:45 AM | #407 |
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OK - I'll accept that. And frankly, he wouldn't have been MY first choice, given a broader field of candidates. However, I think that portrayal of him is quite unfair and unreasonable.
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10-11-2004, 02:03 PM | #408 | ||
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The news media tried to make Bush look like an idiot for not knowing that he owned interest in a timber company. Everyone said FactCheck.org had said it - therefore it must be true. Well Fox reported yesterday that actually in 2001 when the $84 in income was reported, they weren't in the timber industry. They were the ONLY one that reported the correction, factCheck.org even now says that it was not the case - but they will correct the article that erroneously said this. At least they corrected their statement, unlike the rest of the news media. Quote:
Last Child of Ungoliant - There is a BIG difference between being a good public speaker and being smart. I suck at public speaking - but I do NOT consider myself dumb. I think that Bush is smart. If he wasn't - he wouldn't have been governor of Texas for two terms. But hey - the same thing was said about reagan - even by the democrats - now Kerry even mentions Reagan when talking about great presidents of the 20th century. It's funny - no one was calling Bush dumb and stupid during 9/11. It's also funny how people now complaining that he didn't go into Afganistan right away - but basically used diplomacy to get a KEY ally on our side - Pakistan. He didn't just rush into Afganistan, but wanted to make sure key pieces were in place - yet he now gets criticized for that. He also didn't rush into Iraq either. Iraq was a year of negotiations and diplomacy. The diplomacy failed - mostly because the countries who were opposing us - France and Russia and Germany - were in bed with Hussein. The Duelfer report shows how Hussein had close ties with France, that there were agreements to get sanctions lifted. Hussein's plan was to restart his WMD programs immediately after the lifting of sanctions (which France had been pushing for for year). CNN and many other media outlets are only reporting how the report shows that Hussein had no WMD - not about the plans of Hussein or who he was in bed with and why there was NO WAY that the US was going to get anywhere in the UN. What is also disturbing is that the person Hussein was dealing with was a top level Minister in France and a close friend to Chirac. It wasn't just some company breaking the sanctions. This is why it is important to look into what the press reports and look at the actual documents. The Duelfer Report does have a 19 page summary of the key points and you can go into the details if you want. As I have said - Dr Germ wasn't in the Iraqi government as eye-candy. There was a PURPOSE for her being there and a key figure at that.
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10-11-2004, 02:45 PM | #409 | |
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The British and US government spin doctors went into overdrive to emphasise what they could out of this report: that Saddam had "intent" to resume production of weapons once sanctions were lifted. All the media outlets I have seen reported this, and gave it far more prominence than it deserved. And, since everybody already knew that there were no WMDs anyway, they got away with it. It's typical of the cynical manipulation of the media which is now a massive, sophisticated industry. Without skilled, incisive journalism, we are just left with government sound-bites. Anyway, since when was "intent to manufacture weapons" grounds for invading a country?? Under international law, you have to have actual weapons and intent to use them to justify a pre-emptive strike. Iraq had neither. The real message of the report was that sanctions had worked: he disarmed. I take it that, by "not getting anywhere at the UN" you mean the UN wouldn't have backed an invasion, in which case you're right, because clearly such an invasion had to be illegal. |
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10-11-2004, 02:55 PM | #410 |
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What was the figure? How many security council resolutions was it? And wasn't that actually a term of the ceasefire in 1992? We also seem to be ignoring the corruption of France, Russia and China here vis-a-vis Oil for Food. Concerning correlation that, what else did those three want?
No sorry, I'm writing in right wing spin again. You see, it's so hard to differentiate between fact and spin. Or fact, and fact that people like Michael Moore don't like.
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10-11-2004, 03:03 PM | #411 | |
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10-11-2004, 03:06 PM | #412 | |
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And Gaffer - it WAS and is NOT well reported about the role of France, Russia, China or Germany in Iraq. There is hardly anything ever reported on the investigation going on right now in the UN concerning the Oil for Food scandal. There has only been ONE mention that I have heard concerning Koffi Anna's son being given a position in one of the companies which were INVOLVED in the underhanded deals with Hussein. You would think that one mention of the report would be too much for you handle. Show me the law where it states - "Under international law, you have to have actual weapons and intent to use them to justify a pre-emptive strike. " Becuase you know - Meloshivic had NO intentions of attacking any country yet we preemtively went into Bosnia. Why? Because Europe was AFRAID it was going to spill over. there was no proof it was going to. So why didn't we wait then? he was merely killing his own people - something Hussein was doing.
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10-11-2004, 03:16 PM | #413 |
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Janny - you are also right by the way. The Gulf War technically never ended because Hussein was never fully cooperative with the resolutions which were a condition to the end of the war.
Valandil - shhhh - don't call it Oil-for-Palaces - that's juust right wing propaganda. There was NO problems with the oil for food program at all - all hail the great and wonderful UN. Let's just sweep the scandals of the left wing supporters under the rug. Let's ignore that France, Germany, Russia and China all had financial reasons for opposing the US. Talk about blood for oil. Those countries were perfectly willing to sell out the US and the people of Iraq for money. With friends like France - who needs enemies. By the way - Chirac was in Vietnam this last week bad mouthing the US. One thing he said was that the "US hedegmony must be stopped"
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10-11-2004, 03:20 PM | #414 |
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some US companies were also on the list as being involved in a questionable way with the oil for food program... but the CIA is refusing to release the names
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10-11-2004, 03:30 PM | #415 | |
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10-11-2004, 03:47 PM | #416 | |
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do you honestly believe that a company like exxon doing business via the oil for food program with iraq in the 1990s was doing so with zero US government observation and involvement? and if you do, then is it not possible that the same is true of the french and german companies? cheney was involved with haliburton for years, yet you seem to be willing to deny any ties between him and the company once he took office i'm not giving the UN or France or Germany a free ride... i'm saying the US does it too... it's a simple fact of the world, if there is money to be made, whether illegal or not, the big players will jump in... irregardless of the consequences... and the US has always been the biggest player in the game
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10-11-2004, 04:22 PM | #417 | |||
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One thing I find interesting about entmoot also. So many people are bitching about Bush and how terrible he is, they also repeatedly start threads about anything the US does wrong. It's rather ironic that there isn't a thread about the elections that took place in Afganistan yesterday and how well they went off. There weren't the terrorist attacks everyone was afraid of, there wasn't any major problems and there was a HUGE turnout. I think the US and Bush should be given some credit for this, since everyone is so eager to constantly lay the blame on us for anything that goes wrong.
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10-11-2004, 04:30 PM | #418 |
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I've been out of touch with TV since the debates - any more news on the ABC memo thing where Bush was supposed to be held to a greater accountability than Kerry?
PS - thanks, JD, for the info on the lumber thing.
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10-11-2004, 04:32 PM | #419 | |
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brownjenkins - since everyone seems to be going by FactCheck.com - why aren't people using it for Cheney and Haliburton....
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10-11-2004, 04:41 PM | #420 |
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that's where i differ... i see reports from both sides of most issues all the time... maybe it's the news outlets i follow, but between the BBC, NPR and 'the news hour' on PBS you get a pretty fair picture of the world
a world where there's lots of bad guys and lots of good guys... sometimes in political positions, sometimes not... and country of origin has very little to do with which type they are if you continue to look only at the attacks JD, that's all you will ever see... there is other stuff out there more worthy of your attention
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