The Anti-theist Thread

[olsonm]

Originally posted by BeardofPants


This is just being pedantic. As we all know, science has been wrong in the past: this has been due to a lack of information. Yes the truth is still in question, however, this thread is for anti-theists, who are arguing for a non-divine creation. It is NOT about discussing the merits of science.

I was responding to a statement by jerseydevil. I was not discussing the merits of science. I was discussing the belief that vestigial organs disprove divine creation. This has relavence because a disbelief i divine creation shouldn't be founded on shaky evidence.

[Khadrane]

It doesn't say that at all. This is your own interpretation.

Are you meaning the Bible doesn't say that at all? Because in the Garden of Eden there was no death (until God killed the lamb to make them clothes) so unless God created some dead animal lying around, they were vegetarians. And in Genesis after the flood, God told Noah and his family that they could eat meat now.

[afro-elf]

If you want proof of a god, look around you. God created everything you see. Typical circular christian reasoning. The christian assumes his conclusion.

If there's no god, who created everything? Another circular argument. You're assuming there was a creation. Maybe everything always existed, and just changes form?

Prove there isn't a god. Look around you. No gods. No spirits. No heaven or hell. No devils. Prayer doesn't work.

You always look for facts, but nobody can ever know every fact in the whole universe. Do you need to examine every square in the universe, to be sure a round one doesn't exist?

If Jesus came streaming out of heaven, right now, you wouldn't believe it. (This tactic implies the non-believer would ignore any evidence provided, and brushes over the fact that christians have no valid, credible evidence for their god. )

I wasn't brainwashed as a child; I examined all religions, and found Christianity to be the most credible. If you've really examined all religions, you'd come to the conclusion that all gods are the result of primitive minds trying to explain the unknown.

Secular historians such as Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, and others, mention Jesus. Do they mention they met Jesus? That they personally witnessed miracles, or saw him alive after the crucifixion? If not, what use is their hearsay reports of what others told them

The apostles died for their beliefs, so it must be true. Dying for a belief proves nothing. The Heaven's gate people died, believing they would escape in a spacecraft following the Hale-Bopp comet. Does that prove it's true? What about Jim Jones? David Koresh?

You have to be able to read the bible in the original Hebrew & Greek to really understand it. So the people who spend their lives translating the bible, don't know what they're doing, and you do?

You've never been to Paris (the moon, etc.) but you believe in that, don't you? I've seen cities. I don't doubt that more exist, than I will visit in my lifetime. I've never, in all my life, experienced a spiritual being, a soul, a deity, or a convincing miracle.

You don't have an open mind. Correct. I'm proud to have a closed mind. I reject all forms of ignorant mythology and superstition.

You're illogical. I'm not the one who believes in a hebrew war god who killed his son over a fruit tree dispute.

Your arguments (authorities, sources, etc.) make me laugh. This, from someone who quotes from Hebrew folktales involving talking animals

The Second Law of Thermodynamics proves evolution is impossible. The Second Law of Thermodynamics says energy input from an outside source is needed. Have you noticed the Sun in the sky?

The whole universe is perfectly designed, and proves there is a creator. Perfectly designed? So, why is there a winter? Ticks? Mosquitoes? Tapeworms? Fire Ants? Cancer? Sunburn? Leap years?

It's not about science and facts and logic, it's about faith. Faith is just a fancy term for "wishful thinking." Christians wish for a god who loves them, an eternal life, and damnation for all those who don't need that crutch.

There are no Atheists in foxholes. Actually, there are no Christians in foxholes. Why would a Christian hide in a foxhole, if he really believed in a Heaven? Why do Christians wear seatbelts, and go to doctors? Why aren't they all in a hurry to get to heaven?

Heaven or judgement
Miracles prove god is real. Miracles do seem to occur in direct proportion to the ignorance of the observer.

My prayers have been answered. Let's try an experiment. I'll pray for a pizza. If it doesn't get here in 30 minutes or less, will you admit there is no god? 1000 hours of prayer will never beat ten minutes of honest work.

Christians have been healed through prayer. If prayer really healed, doctors would be out of business. In fact, every time a sick child dies at the hands of praying Christian parents, it proves there is no god

3a. Innocent people endure pointless suffering. (Go to a children's cancer ward

Any god who creates a sentient being out of dirt,
knowing the being will be damned to hell,
should have left the dirt alone.

[olsonm]

Originally posted by afro-elf


Any god who creates a sentient being out of dirt,
knowing the being will be damned to hell,
should have left the dirt alone.

This is an interesting argument against certain conceptions of 'God'. Unfortunately 'God' doesn't necessarily have to share this opinion.

[afro-elf]

NIBS

again I applaud you


damn am i becoming a your fan

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by afro-elf
swallow and chew through the same whole = choking

Just useless trivia: a baby can breathe and eat at the same time. However, in order to use our vocal cords in speech, we have lost this ability to eat & breath at the same time, and if we try, we choke! Another 'imperfection', if you will.

[Khadrane]

Prayer doesn't work.

Not true. You will probably think this is a corny story, because it is. I have this fish. I got him for my birthday, and I am really fond of him. He is one of those bettas. They have great personalities. Well, one day, he got sick. He just wouldn't get better. Eventually, he was lying (laying?) on his side just waiting to die. I had been praying for him (sorry. That's really lame.) but I didn't give up. I kept praying. And lo and behold, he got better. He's in my roon swimming happily in his tank right now. You'll probably just think that that's a coincidence, but it really was God. (In my opinion anyway.)

[Nibs]

I don't know, afro-elf. You tell me .

It just occurred to me as I was glancing over all this inconclusive scientific banter... there's evidence for both; the knowledge of one of them is much more difficult to gain.

[afro-elf]

various quotes II


Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without
knowledge, of things without parallel.
- Ambrose Bierce


A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. 51
"Faith" means not wanting to know what is true. 52

Geology shows that fossils are of different ages. Paleontology shows a fossil sequence, the list of species represented changes through time. Taxonomy shows biological relationships among species. Evolution is the explanation that threads it all together. Creationism is the practice of squeezing one's eyes shut and wailing 'does not!'"
..........Dr.Pepper@f241.n103.zl.fidonet.org


"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion."
..........Robert M. Pirsig

Faith; noun. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel."
..........Ambrose Bierce

"Pray, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy."
..........Ambrose Bierce



"Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate."
..........F.M. Knowles

You are never dedicated to do something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kind of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt."
..........Robert M. Pirsig, "Zen & The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"



"Our civilization is not Christian. It does not come from the skies. It is not a result of "inspiration." It is the child of invention, of discovery, of applied knowledge that is to say, of science
How long, O how long will mankind worship a book? How long will they grovel in the dust before the ignorant legends of the barbaric past? How long, O how long will they pursue phantoms in a darkness deeper than death?"
.........."Heretics and Heresies", 1874

"Science is the enemy of fear and credulity. It invites investigation, challenges the reason, stimulates inquiry, and welcomes the unbeliever. It seeks to give food and shelter, and raiment, education and liberty to the human race. …The mysterious does not excite the feeling of worship, but the ambition to understand. It does not pray it works. It does not answer inquiry with the malicious cry of "blasphemy." Its feelings are not hurt by contradiction,

I believe in the religion of reason the gospel of this world; in the development of the mind, in the accumulation of intellectual wealth, to the end that man may free himself from superstitious fear, to the end that he may take advantage of the forces of nature to feed and clothe the world."
.........."Why Am I An Agnostic?", 1896
"I admit that reason is a small and feeble flame, a flickering torch by stumblers carried in the starless night, blown and flared by passion's storm, and yet, it is the only light. Extinguish that, and nought remains."
..........FieldIngersoll Debate, "A Reply to the Rev. Henry M. Field, D.D., 1887

If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be insane."
..........Third Interview on Rev. Talmadge, 1882

[Nibs]

Originally posted by Khadrane
I have this fish. I got him for my birthday, and I am really fond of him. He is one of those bettas. They have great personalities.

Not to debase the point of your story, Khadrane, but won't two of these fish (the males actually; they're the only ones commonly sold, if I'm correct), when placed in a container of water together, fight until one dies? I just thought that, even if that factiod is false, that comparing it with your statement "they have great personalities" is very, very funny.

[afro-elf]

various quotes III

We have already compared the benefits of theology and science. When the theologian governed the world, it was covered with huts and hovels for the many, palaces and cathedrals for the few. To nearly all the children of men, reading and writing were unknown arts. The poor were clad in rags and skins they devoured crusts, and gnawed bones. The day of Science dawned, and the luxuries of a century ago are the necessities of today. Men in the middle ranks of life have more of the conveniences and elegancies than the princes and kings of the theological times. But above and over all this, is the development of mind. There is more of value in the brain of an average man of today of a mastermechanic, of a chemist, of a naturalist, of an inventor, than there was in the brain of the world four hundred years ago. These blessings did not fall from the skies. These benefits did not drop from the outstretched hands of priests. They were not found in cathedrals or behind altars neither were they searched for with holy candles. They were not discovered by the closed eyes of prayer, nor did they come in answer to superstitious supplication. They are the children of freedom, the gifts of reason, observation and experience and for them all, man is indebted to man."


We have heard talk enough. We have listened to all the drowsy, idealess, vapid sermons that we wish to hear. We have read your Bible and the works of your best minds. We have heard your prayers, your solemn groans and your reverential amens. All these amount to less than nothing. We want one fact. We beg at the doors of your churches for just one little fact. We pass our hats along your pews and under your pulpits and implore you for just one fact. We know all about your mouldy wonders and your stale miracles. We want a 'this year's fact'. We ask only one. Give us one fact for charity. Your miracles are too ancient. The witnesses have been dead for nearly two thousand years. Their reputation for 'truth and veracity' in the neighborhood where they resided is wholly unknown to us. Give us a new miracle, and substantiate it by witnesses who still have the cheerful habit of living this world. Do not send us to Jericho to hear the winding horns, nor put us in the fire with Shadrach, Meshech and Abednego. Do not compel us to navigate the sea with Captain Jonah, nor dine with Mr. Ezekiel. There is no sort of use in sending us foxhunting with Samson. We have positively lost all interest in that little speech so eloquently delivered by Balaam's inspired donkey. It is worse than useless to show us fishes with money in their mouths, and call our attention to vast multitudes stuffing themselves with five crackers and two sardines. We demand a new miracle, and we demand it now. Let the church furnish at least one, or forever hold her peace."

[jerseydevil]

Nibs - science at least looks for the truth. Religion just expects you to accept it at face value and not look any further.

[Nibs]

Ouch, ouch, ouch and ouch, afro-elf... those cut to the core. "Empty sermons" and "mouldy wonders" make my Christian blood boil. But I will not be hasty.

May I ask who wrote these messages, especially the latter? I'll pray for them, if they are still alive.

[olsonm]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Nibs - science at least looks for the truth. Religion just expects you to accept it at face value and not look any further.

Careful jd, some religions do that not all. Science may look for the truth, but scientists are just human and can be just as biased as a religous person. I agree,however, that science has the best chance of finding natural truth.

[Nibs]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Nibs - science at least looks for the truth. Religion just expects you to accept it at face value and not look any further.

It seems to me like you say this from a purely nontheistic paradigm. I know that I spoke from my theistic one, but from personal experience. I speak from experience with both.

In the most sincere way, I ask you: can you honestly tell me that you do as well?

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by olsonm


Careful jd, some religions do that not all. Science may look for the truth, but scientists are just human and can be just as biased as a religous person. I agree,however, that science has the best chance of finding natural truth.

I'll agree there. On the whole, the Catholic church has been pretty good at searching for the truth.

[Rána Eressëa]

I had a Betta fish once. Jake, I called him. He got overfed by my little cousin and died. I then took a little candy coffin case (small enough to fit in the palm of your hand) and put him in it, dug a 6-inch deep hole in front of the tree in the yard, buried him, and put little pebbles around his grave mound and a little stick-made cross at the head of the grave. I forced my brothers to hold a little ceromony for him, even though we had only had him for a week.

That was three and a half years ago.

Why am I saying this? No particular reason. Just sharing a story.

[afro-elf]

Sorry nibs those were a little harsh

i believe tge author was robert ingersoll (SP?)


but he is long dead

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Nibs

It seems to me like you say this from a purely nontheistic paradigm. I know that I spoke from my theistic one, but from personal experience. I speak from experience with both.

In the most sincere way, I ask you: can you honestly tell me that you do as well?

I think, without meaning to flame, that the reason that some of us are atheists, is because we've had experience with both. I believed in God when I was a kid, because that's what my parents told me to believe in. I went to church, and all that stuff. Then, like Rogue Elf, I started to question. Why are we here? (because god made us) Why? (Because he did) What about the dinosaurs? (If God didn't intend you to know about it...), and so on. Cyclic arguments just don't grab me. I like to question, to query, and so forth. Religion, on the whole, does not let you do that: it comes down to faith: whether or not you believe. Science however, does. Sure, there are scientists out there, who are just as much a 'zealot' as some christians, but this comes down to human fallacy, not science as a method.

[olsonm]

Can science disprove 'God'? I don't know. Is science incapable of proving 'God's existence? I don't know that either. I don't think anybody knows for sure. Does this post contribute to this discussion? Probably not.