Theological Opinions

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

you might as well hit me with a herring, cos i still dont quite understand
something you agree on, fine
something you disagree, your husband makes final say
please dont take this the wrong way, but does that not imply that he holds the power?
thereby making him an ipso facto leader?

Yes, he's the leader of our household. That does NOT mean I don't have any say in things, or that I"m second class. I have a huge say in our decisions. We discuss things quite a bit, and he often is swayed by my input and changes his mind about the decision. Also he often chooses my preference over his, because he is aware of the charge for husbands to love their wives sacrificially.

Y'know, I think it boils down to this: is God, the One who set up this system, loving and good and all-knowing, and does He honor and love men and women equally and care equally for their welfare? I think the answer is a resounding "yes".

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

From this thread:

Yes - I know that. How is is "painful situation" though? All I said was that i don't want my sister to be subservient. As you can see I say I get pissed and I'm concerned. It's hardly a "painful situation". Oh well - this seems to be your response since I'm sure I hit close to the mark on the 'disagreement" issue you are trying desperately to defend.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Rian, are you saying that sometimes you make the final decision and sometimes your husband makes the final decision based on what it concerns?

(I had to look at your name because some people still have your avvy!)

That's one way it works sometimes - he'll say, "you decide here, because you know more in this area." But I have chosen to let him make that call. And I make a ton of decisions on my own - it's not like I'm asking him about every decision.

I think that most of the objections that people have to the idea of Biblical submission are based on seeing abuses of it. Really, the times that it actually happens that we disagree and I choose to let him make the decision are not very frequent.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Boring for factory jobs, but darn efficient! Not that efficiency in itself is a goal, but as far as achieving things, I think it helps to specialize.

I agree, though it's not always appropriate. For example, in building forestry machines like harvesters, one person is in charge of that particular machine and follows it from a box of parts to the final product. They don't have an assembly line, but rather, stations. There is freedom for workers to switch shifts or stations, as long as they finish the machine in the time it should take.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

That's not what I said. I said, "I don't look at it as my husband being a "leader" and I'm not a leader." I just see it as by mutual consent, he has the final say in areas where we disagree. We both lead in areas that we're good in.

I know you said that. I meant that it does seem that he is the leader since the responsibility of making final decisions rests on his shoulders. Personally this is one way I define a leader.
Maybe we're just in a word-usage like Inked and I were a few posts ago now?

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Well, he can insist, but I can refuse to go along. It's my choice if I go along or not, and I choose to go along unless I think he is asking me to do something wrong.

Right. Of course, I knew you had said that already too. But in that case... he's not making all the final decisions. For example, if this happened...

Husband: Let's send our son to military school!
Wife: I know he spray painted a car, but I don't think this would help.
Husband: I'm the man and my decision is final.
Wife: Oh please. *rolls eyes* This is not a good idea and I won't go along with it. Instead, I think he should pay for the damage out of his own pocket.
Husband: That is a better idea. We'll do that.

I don't think your husband (from what you've said of him around the board) would utter the phrase "I'm the man and my decision is final" but it's late and I can't think of a better example.

I may edit in a better example later.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Yeah, I think so. Do you feel like your understanding of this concept has changed at all? For example, were you aware of the charge to the husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church? That's HUGE, IMO.

Yes, I certainly have learned a lot about this idea. (Even though I don't agree with it in general, at least I know what it is now, and what your view of it is.)
Further understanding, especially about how Christ loves the Church, will (hopefully) be aquired upon reading the Bible.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by rian

Y'know, I think it boils down to this: is God, the One who set up this system, loving and good and all-knowing, and does He honor and love men and women equally and care equally for their welfare? I think the answer is a resounding "yes".

well if both men and women are loved by the one is all, and that love is equal in it's entirety, then why the submission? surely both are beings equal in majesty, not one above the other?

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

We discuss things quite a bit, and he often is swayed by my input and changes his mind about the decision.

The key phrase here is "change HIS MIND about the decision".

Also he often chooses my preference over his, because he is aware of the charge for husbands to love their wives sacrificially.

What about just treating you as a human being with intelligence? Instead os "aware of the CHARGE for husbands to love their wives". It sounds like your talking about a damn animal there. I'm sorry - but it does.

Y'know, I think it boils down to this: is God, the One who set up this system, loving and good and all-knowing, and does He honor and love men and women equally and care equally for their welfare? I think the answer is a resounding "yes".

And I think it boils down to this - did the people who wrote the bible wish to keep man/husband as the leader and I think it's a resounding YES.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Yes - I know that. How is is "painful situation" though?

I thought it would be painful for you to see your sister in that situation. I guess I was wrong.

[Butterbeer]

rian i think i got a handle of what you were inferring: that in your relationship there is a lot of trust and mutual respect and therefore you had no personal problem with due regard to the respect of your husband's love, character and judgement in giving final say to him at a pinch as an agreed course of action, but would never do so if you seriouslt thought it wrong - is that correct?

If so fair enough - if it works for you and you are truly happy with it

But you have surely got to see how JD and LCOU and (even Nurvingiel in her own slightly different way) see this as unequal and - it appears -almost doctrinal submission? How much is this through religious doctrine and how much through your own personal choice and free- will?

Asi said above i think i understand where you are coming from (not personally - HAH! y'know?)- and if you are happy great! but i can't quite grasp why you have seem not to understand the response, ref: clear cut case of leader?

Ps any improvement on the washing / laundry situation?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

well if both men and women are loved by the one is all, and that love is equal in it's entirety, then why the submission? surely both are beings equal in majesty, not one above the other?

Because IMO, marriage is more than a means for a man and a woman to get hitched

Can't explain more now, gtg get the kiddos!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

rian i think i got a handle of what you were inferring: that in your relationship there is a lot of trust and mutual respect and therefore you had no personal problem with due regard to the respect of your husband's love, character and judgement in giving final say to him at a pinch as an agreed course of action, but would never do so if you seriouslt thought it wrong - is that correct?

Yes, pretty good summation. Except not just "wrong", it would have to be, IMO, morally wrong.

But you have surely got to see how JD and LCOU and (even Nurvingiel in her own slightly different way) see this as unequal and - it appears -almost doctrinal submission?

Oh, certainly

(will answer the rest later, but just wanted to answer the first part now)

Ps any improvement on the washing / laundry situation?

It just keeps comin'!
BTW, my oldest son (almost 15) has now been doing his own laundry during the summer for the past 2 years. AMAZING how the number of his clothes that need to be washed go drastically down! ALL of my kids - no matter what their sex - will be able to do ALL household chores.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I thought it would be painful for you to see your sister in that situation. I guess I was wrong.

Well I guess you were assuming on what I would think and feel then. And it wouldn't be painful - it would just piss me off and I would tell her how I feel - like I do tell her. If she doesn't have a problem with it or she doesn't see it - then it's her life.

But considering that my father and I both did very similar things to her husband without either of us knowing, I think it's rather telling on how my family works. When I first met her husband before they were married - he was in NY - we met - and I basically laid out the "ground rules" and told him that I needed a report on why he felt he was good enough for my sister and worthy enough to enter into our family. Needless to say - I was only half joking. My sister is my sister and she WILL BE treated with respect and as an INTELLIGENT and INDEPENDANT person. Tne as it ended up - my father did the very same thing - but my father went one step further and even had a contract made out for him to sign

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

that must be the irish in you JD

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

that must be the irish in you JD

Actually - i think it was more the italian. it was very godfather like - and was even in an italian restaurant in NY. All I needed was soem men to come in a rough him up a bit as a demonstration of what would happen.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Well I guess you were assuming on what I would think and feel then. And it wouldn't be painful - it would just piss me off and I would tell her how I feel - like I do tell her. If she doesn't have a problem with it or she doesn't see it - then it's her life.

But considering that my father and I both did very similar things to her husband without either of us knowing, I think it's rather telling on how my family works. When I first met her husband before they were married - he was in NY - we met - and I basically laid out the "ground rules" and told him that I needed a report on why he felt he was good enough for my sister and worthy enough to enter into our family. Needless to say - I was only half joking. My sister is my sister and she WILL BE treated with respect and as an INTELLIGENT and INDEPENDANT person. Tne as it ended up - my father did the very same thing - but my father went one step further and even had a contract made out for him to sign

well you ain't marrying my sister mate (dad took the pen for the contract with him to his grave!)

how did your brother in law take all that? was your sister pleased (as an independent person)or pissed?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

ah, so not the ten brothers with baseball bats, thats how we work in the old country

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Yes, pretty good summation. Except not just "wrong", it would have to be, IMO, morally wrong.

So if you are planning on a vacation and your husband wants to go one place and you want to go another - you have no problem with him just saying - "well sorry - this is where we are going"? If we couldn't decide on a place - then we came up with somewhere else that all of us could agree on.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

ah, so not the ten brothers with baseball bats, thats how we work in the old country

best of both worlds: mamma's meat balls and pasta followed by a skinfull of the blackstuff,
10 brothers with baseball bats and a dead horse's head partying on down

(edited: previous pun looked dodgy)

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

well you ain't marrying my sister mate (dad took the pen for the contract with him to his grave!)

how did your brother in law take all that?

I think he thought we were crazy. He's from tennessee. They're not used to this kind of stuff there it seems.

was your sister pleased (as an independent person)or pissed?

She just rolled her eyes and thought it was funny. It may seem contractory with us - or me in particular - to do that, but it wasn't like I was saying he couldn't marry her. But hell will have to be payed if he doesn't treat her right.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

how did your brother in law take all that? was your sister pleased (as an independent person)or pissed?

Excellent question! Does that imply that she can't take care of herself somehow? Does that acknowledge that she is "an INTELLIGENT and INDEPENDANT" person?

I wonder if JD and his dad would question a potential sister/daughter-in-law that way? Interesting thought!

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Excellent question! Does that imply that she can't take care of herself somehow? Does that acknowledge that she is "an INTELLIGENT and INDEPENDANT" person?

I wonder if JD and his dad would question a potential sister/daughter-in-law that way? Interesting thought!

yeah yeah - good try Rian. Since I didn't meet either of my brother's wive before they got married - it was diffult to do. I do have a problem with my one brother's wife though she seems like she's 5 years old and stuff.

As for whether it does indicate that she is an "INTELLIGENT and INDEPENDANT" person - yeah it does. It was my sister's decision to marry him - I wasn't going to stop it even if I didn't like him. However - as I said - hell would be paid if he didn't treat her right. It has nothing to do with her being woman as you are trying so desperately to claim it seems. It has to do with respect and my love for my sister. I think my brother's wife is annoying for the same reasons I sometimes have problems with my sister's husband.

When my brother was out on leave a couple of years ago - and we went into NY - she called him every 5 minutes. We';d walka block and there she would be calling him back to see if he was okay. So yes - my feeling is the same for both of them.Oh - and she wouldn't let him take a greyhound bus because there had been a crash, and he couldn't take the train, and he couldn't take a plane - which made it very difficult for him to come visit me when he was in Washington DC.