11-02-2004, 03:19 PM | #381 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Two examples - First : You're walking with me thru a forest. You're blindfolded, because I told you I wanted you to experience the forest with your other senses more. We reach a deep chasm. I tell you "Ñólendil, this chasm is spanned by a tree. You go on ahead and I'll guide you from behind." As you take the first step, you step onto the REAL thing that is ACTUALLY spanning the chasm - some nice quality, scented, double thick ... toilet paper. As you plunge down the chasm, giving an artistic Gandalf effect, you call out "That wasn't a tree!!" I yell down after you, "But I was speaking poetically! Toilet paper comes from trees - trees are in toilet paper - toilet paper is a tree!" Poetry is fine - I love poetry and beautiful speaking and metaphors - but one MUST understand the difference. Second : If you take the table that supposedly "is" the sun, and replace the REAL sun with this table, then ... we would all die, Ñólendil. We would all die. And THAT'S reality. The table is NOT the sun, altho it has depended upon the effects of the (REAL) sun. SO - the talk sounds nice, and I have no problem with metaphors. But sometimes we must talk about reality, or we will die. And I think Hinduism/Buddhism takes this talk too far - they will say "all religions are one" in the same way they'll say "the table and the sun are one". But if the truth claims of one worldview are contradictory to the truth claims of another - the easiest example being atheism and Christianity - then "God exists" and 'God does NOT exist" cannot both be true, unless you're saying you're talking poetically somehow. But at some point, we also need to deal with reality, and make decisions based on what we think is true ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-02-2004 at 03:21 PM. |
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11-02-2004, 03:36 PM | #382 | ||||
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I cannot accept that the God described in the Bible is "One and the Same" with Moloch, and I think it is dangerous to try to say they're the same. What are your thoughts on this?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-02-2004 at 03:40 PM. |
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11-02-2004, 04:41 PM | #383 | |
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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11-02-2004, 05:42 PM | #384 | ||||||
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But they're not meant to be taken that way. I did not invent this particular passage ("There is only death. There is no death."), but I can tell you that, at least, I do not mean it literally. There is only death because everything immediately tangible passes away and dies, and almost nothing is lasting. There is no death because death itself cannot touch pure consciousness, which is above and beyond the bounds of death. Quote:
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I hope you are not offended if I tell you that I think your examples are unfair and silly. I'm sure they're meant to be silly. It is not always good, though, to speak literally if someone doesn't understand you're speaking literally. I am preparing for battle against a particularly nasty giant, and I come to you for encouragement, and advice. "Rian, I need a mighty weapon to defeat this giant. What shall I use?" "Your weapon should cut like the thorn of the rose, and yet dazzle your enemy with the brilliance of a sunflower. I will give you such a weapon." I nod, confident in your ability to supply with me the proper tool of destruction. Now I stand on the battlefield, and the giant draws his mighty club. "Rian, now!" And out you rush with a rose and a sunflower, and press them into my hands. "What the heck am I supposed to do with these?" "It's a rose and a sunflower. I said it should cut like the thorn of a rose and dazzle your enemy with the brilliance of a sunflower. Therefore, that is exactly what I meant." And now I'm dead, Rian, the giant killed me. Thanks.
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Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 11-02-2004 at 05:46 PM. |
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11-02-2004, 05:46 PM | #385 | |||||||||
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Anyway, "that" is often used in the Upanishads to indicate the Divine. "This" is more subjective. So, "this and that are one and the same", as I said, is like saying "He (or She, or It, or You) are divine." So there is something to be said for both figurative and literal language, but I think what overrides them both is context.
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11-03-2004, 10:25 AM | #386 | |
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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11-03-2004, 05:22 PM | #387 | ||
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One of the things that I dislike about Hinduism, and that seems to ring false, is the kind of absortion thing going on. Perhaps I'm mixing it up with Buddhism, which came out of Hinduism, but I thought Hinduism was pretty much stating that basically one gets absorbed into the one reality, and that "losing" onesself was a goal. To me, that's really sad, because I think people are awesome, amazing, beautiful creations. However, since I asked this question, IIRC, you said that you don't think people lose their individualism. Isn't that against what most of your teachers would say, tho? Someone on the Moot asked me once what a "soul" was (I think it was Nerdanel). I never got around to answering it, because it was on a really busy thread, but let me give it a shot. A "soul" is who you want to tell a great joke to. A "soul" is someone you want to sit on the couch with and watch a movie. A "soul" is someone that will comfort you and give you pillows to cry on. When you are bummed out and a friend calls you, it's their "soul" that makes your heart happy again. When you're happy, it's a "soul" that you want to share it with. "Ñólendil" or "Dylan" is not who you ARE, but it IS a name that I identify with a particular SOUL, and everything that makes it unique and beautiful (i.e., it's easier to say "Dylan" than "you know, that guy that is this tall, and has this color hair, and lives there, etc. etc.") When I log on the Moot and see that "Ñólendil" is in the user list, I smile because I like him. I think of cheetos and geese (remember these? Prob. not! ) and how kind he was to provide a list of the letters with those diacritical marks and how to type them for me, when I was just a newbie Mooter. I think of his great sense of humor, and his kind and considerate heart, and his bright intelligence. And to me, it would be a shame to lose "Ñólendil" to a vast, impersonal "reality". And I don't see a reason why wonderful souls like "Ñólendil" would be created, just to end up absorbed somehow and lost And that's an intellectual/heart problem I have with Buddhism, and from what I can tell, Hinduism, too. One can't "weigh" different worldviews in a physical scale to tell which one is true; one can only "weigh" them in the scales of the heart and mind. And in my scales, Hinduism is found lacking. Another question (is this too many?) - what does Hinduism say about providing for the poor and needy? Are there any official statements like "help the widow and orphan" in Hindu literature? Are there any Hindu orphanages run by monks (as opposed to the state). I know that India is mostly Hindu, and orphanges would prob. be run by Hindus, but do you see what I'm saying - is it because of the initiative of the STATE, or the RELIGION?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-03-2004 at 05:29 PM. |
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11-03-2004, 06:08 PM | #388 |
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To me, in one sense, the Dylan or Nolendil you talk to all the time is not my soul.
I think I am always working on the surface level, the level of the ego. The ultimate witness that sees through my sight and so on is my soul, the goodness in me is my soul, but I can't feel my soul. I do not know that it is there. Intelectual knowledge is not the same as true knowledge. I do not realize that I am my soul. I think I am my ego. But my soul is there, and the absorption has already happened. That's the thing. Hinduism and Buddhism both teach that the other shore, which we must reach, is the same as this shore. We walk and we walk and we walk upon the path that we have chosen, and when we get to the end, we realize that we have never moved at all. We are everywhere. So I don't think you were thinking of Buddhism, rather than Hinduism. "Losing" oneself is the goal, if by "oneself", you mean "one's ego". But realizing oneself is also the goal, the same goal, if by "oneself" you mean one's soul. This is the Hindu way of putting it. To Buddhists, the Hindu ego is the Buddhist "self", and the Hindu soul is the Buddhist "Buddha-nature" or "innermost clear light", so there is potential for confusion. This is why Buddhists speak of transcending the self, while Hindus speak of Realizing the Self. Both mean the same thing, because both are using different meanings for "self". I speak in the Hindu senses. I do not believe one remains a seperate individual when one is at one with Brahman. Dvaita Vedantists do believe this, but I am more of an Advaita (non-dualist) Vedantist. But this does not mean that you or I go away, and no longer exist. It means that "you" and "I" go away, and no longer exist. My soul is still there, and your soul is still there. But there is no fundamental difference between my soul and your soul. But we know eachother. We know our Self. And we, who are one, will remember all the experiences we ever had together, in any and every life lived in any and every body, or ego. To be at one with Brahman is, among other things, to transcend the laws and limitations recognized by human beings. We will be one, yes. But even the One Himself manifests as the Many. The joy is the union, where there is no suffering, but no one fades away into nothingness. I will not longer be 6'0, with my blonde hair, or my favorite Ice Breakers mints in my pocket. I will be at one with the Divine, an incomprehensible but wonderful thing. So, the wonderful souls (like Nolendil and Rian) will not be absorbed somehow, and lost. The Atman is already at one with Brahman. It is the realization of the Atman, the soul, that will be gained. What will be lost is the ego, that which creates suffering. Suffering will be lost. I hope this helps you understand where I am coming from.
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11-03-2004, 06:14 PM | #389 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Blonde?!
I always thought you were one of the Ñoldor, who were mostly dark-haired! (your user name goes with this, right?) I guess you're from Finarfin's family
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-03-2004, 06:22 PM | #390 | |||||
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So it doesn't have to be viewed as a Thing, or an It. If the idea bothers you, then it will not be a helpful idea for you. Quote:
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Falmon -- Dylan |
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11-03-2004, 06:29 PM | #391 | |
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Ñoldor is related, it means "Lore-masters" or "the Knowledgeable", and other things. Both names go back to the Primitive Quendian "ñgôlê", which means "Science/Philosophy". The Noldor in those days were called Ñgôlodôi, or something along those lines.
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Falmon -- Dylan |
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11-03-2004, 06:49 PM | #392 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Do you find salvation by looking within?
(and who wants to go next, BTW - I imagine Ñólendil's seat is getting numb!) And the reason behind my other question about Tolkien - C.S. Lewis writes "If I find in myself desires which nothing in this world can satisfy, the only logical explanation is that I was made for another world." I wanted to see what was calling to your heart.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-03-2004, 07:01 PM | #393 | |
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Again, I see what you're driving at. I just disagree with it. I don't see how one person can find nirvana thru a god that requires infants to be burned alive, and another thru the God of the Bible, yet I see Hinduism saying this. Am I wrong?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-03-2004, 07:17 PM | #394 | ||
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Maybe the infant-burning God is not real and/or does not lead to Truth. Just because some people believe it doesn't necessarily mean it is a way.
Am I getting the gist here? Of course, this opens the door to everyone's beliefs and how do you know they're true. But you would get really bad karma from burning an infant, so that could be a guide too. Maybe another guide is, does it hurt others? Am I making the world a better place by this action? If you are, then maybe that's another step towards Truth. I really have enjoyed all your posts Nolendil, I hope you stay on the seat a little longer, at least until Wayfarer asks his mysterious question. Hope your butt's not too sore.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-03-2004, 07:28 PM | #395 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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On Moloch, from Wikipedia, since it's popular (there's other info out there, too, tho):
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-03-2004 at 07:36 PM. |
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11-03-2004, 07:33 PM | #396 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Now does Hinduism say Moloch is a manifestation of God? If no, why not? It seems to me they're saying all gods are paths to nirvana. Whatever works for a person is fine. If this is NOT so, then they are selective. If they have to be selective, then it's obvious that not all worldviews/religions are considered to be right. There seems to be a contradiction here.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-03-2004, 10:23 PM | #397 | ||||||
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I have not found salvation yet. Looking within I think is one thing people need to do. Quote:
It's primary purpose so far as I can tell is to illustrate how people with differing opinions of God's nature can all be correct. I don't think it takes Atheists and the like into account. If it did, I have no idea how the story would go. Maybe it would say Atheists are wrong in every way. I don't know. I do know that lots of Hindus don't see where Buddhism comes into friction with Hinduism. Buddhism is a religion, but some see it shares some things in common with Atheism. Buddhists generally don't believe in a personal God. Many will tell you that there is no God. But this is not a problem for Vedantists. "Buddha-nature" and the "innermost clear light" is the same as Atman, or Brahman. Other Hindus look utterly down on Atheism and Buddhists altogether, unfortunately. The Buddha was very unpopular with the Brahmins (the Hindu priests), because he very much downplayed rituals and personal deities. He stressed the importance of non-attachment, and non-self, and emptiness (or openness, interdependence), and of letting go to notions such as "Shiva" or "Vishnu", which really get in our way. His followers were driven out of India, (I think mostly into China), and the Brahmins invented horrendous myths about the Buddha being sent to deceive the wicked with Buddhism, in order to seperate the good people from the bad people (the good being the Hindus). This is a horrible thing that was done, and there are other positive, much better myths about the Buddha in Hinduism. The Buddha was speaking to a certain audience and a certain time, which needed exactly what he was telling them. And I think everyone can still benefit greatly from Dharma, the Buddha's teachings. So even within one religion (any religion), people are not going to agree. But I think there is nothing wrong with Buddhism, or other "godless religions" as the Dalai Lama put it: Jainism (also an offshoot of Hinduism), Taoism, Confucianism. And I don't think there is anything wrong with Atheism, either. Quote:
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And I think you're right. I remember asking my therapist once, how I should distinguish between true realizations and delusion. I was meditating, and getting answers to my questions (which inevitably came from myself in some fashion). He told me that the feeling one gets is a good indicator, and the effect it has on you. What kind of behavior does it encourage? If it makes you feel bad, or ashamed, or fearful, it is probably not real. But if it brings you happiness, and clarity of mind, or relief, etc., it is probably a truth you have come to. I don't recommend this sort of scale of others, but it is comparable to what you are saying. Look at the effects. Quote:
I also don't know what writings, if there were any, said about Moloch. I don't know if he was supposed to be worshipped a certain way, and then it was horribly, horribly, perverted. I read what you have posted here. I will say that those people burning infants were in the wrong, the far wrong, and although I have no idea what God would "say" on a given subject, or what kind of sandwich he would like for dinner (to speak of specific knowledge about God), I can't imagine that God would want his followers to kill anyone. So, speaking for myself (granted, a Hindu), I don't think Moloch is a manifestation of God provided the information you have given me. I don't think so because at least some of the ideas about him must be completely unjust and down right corrupt, and practiced widely by perhaps the entire religion. To me, it is comparable to murders by the Klu Klux Klan, who claim to have been doing God's work. Or to anyone who murders in the name of God. Should I look at the KKK, and say "Do you really believe their God is real?" It seems like an unfair question. The focus should be on the criminals, in such cases, and not "the god they worship". Moloch, real or not real, did not commit those crimes. It was the people who did, and those people's faith was askew. That is what I would say. Their beliefs were not good beliefs.
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Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 11-03-2004 at 10:26 PM. |
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11-03-2004, 10:26 PM | #398 | |
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I don't care if you call God "Mr. Shoe" and wear Him on your foot, as long as you have ideas of real love and compassion that you are striving for in your life, you're going to be okay. Just don't use Mr. Shoe to kick people.
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Falmon -- Dylan |
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11-03-2004, 11:29 PM | #399 |
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There is no such thing as "Mr Shoe".
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11-03-2004, 11:36 PM | #400 |
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Bah. How can you disbelieve in Mr. Shoe? You're like an ashoeist or something.
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Falmon -- Dylan |