03-26-2009, 10:17 PM | #381 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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It's not really about the embryos, it's about the votes and the money. That's why conservatives spend a lot more time on abortion than they do on babies. It doesn't cost nearly as much to debate concepts as it does to truly help human beings.
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03-31-2009, 12:39 AM | #382 | |
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Further - what you say about conservatives is both slanderous and baseless. Also - as a conservative myself, especially on this issue - I state emphatically that what you say is totally untrue. Abortion is murder. It is cruel, and reprehensible treatment of innocents. And we do it to ourselves in America at a phenomenal rate.
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03-31-2009, 09:52 AM | #383 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Um, if you haven't been following this topic, Valandil, it was started by inked on the science thread and we were told by Nurvingiel to take it to this thread: Quote:
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Well, I guess we disagree on that- and certainly talking about the motivations, alternatives, or consequences of actions taken by all sides is part of the discussion, no? Otherwise, it 's just an endless reiteration of "Abortion is murder" "No. it isn't " "YES it is" "NO it isn't" Quote:
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04-01-2009, 02:32 PM | #384 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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I disagree. But I still like Val, so I'll leave it at that!
I will say that for some like Val, it really is just about what they see as murder. But for very many others who are against it, it is not.
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04-01-2009, 05:42 PM | #385 |
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I don't really get why the topic of 'what happens to babies that are born to women who would otherwise have chosen abortion' wouldn't be germane, anyway.
I recently read a great blog post on one woman's experience of adoption, and i don't think much thought is given to the aftereffects of destroying families through adoption. It's all about the happy NEW family, and the losses experienced by families who lose children to adoption aren't often discussion.
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04-01-2009, 09:31 PM | #386 |
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Sorry - I was uncharacteristically 'on edge' when I first responded. I agree that these issues surrounding abortion are germaine to the topic (Oooo... I like that word, and haven't used it in a long time - a shame to only be copying its usage ).
Siscuz - I suppose there could be some regrets about giving a child up for adoption (is that what the point of the blog post was?), but at least it seems so much better than just ending the child's life! Conservative views on care of the born babies: The conservatives I hang out with are VERY concerned about that. Some think it could be done with government assistance - but that group isn't so much conservative. Many think it should be done - but with private assistance, or at least governmental help that is other than federal (or even governmental partnerships with faith-based organizations - these have a VERY high rate of effectiveness in dealing with social issues). Our federal government programs of this type, at the scale necessary, seem to be rife with problems: lack of accountability, inefficiency, a self-propogating bureacracy (did I spell that right?), etc. As can be observed, the solution of throwing more money at a social problem often seems to just make it a bigger problem. As for those who DON'T care about the babies who are born - mostly politicians I suppose. But I don't hold much to what any politician says - whether they claim to be conservative or liberal. Most are really just trying to win their next election, and conducting themselves accordingly. OK... I'll say 'seemingly' - because I'm sure that statement is otherwise overly harsh toward a few.
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04-02-2009, 11:35 AM | #387 |
Elf Lord
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Another piece of abortion news...
http://www.blogher.com/charge-archbi...-tags/feminism
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
04-02-2009, 11:48 AM | #388 |
Elf Lord
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Val, it doesn't, to me. I don't see it as "ending a child's life." I haven't seen miscarriages as that, either.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
11-01-2009, 10:59 PM | #389 | |
Kraken King
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Quote:
I have a vague view towards abortion, because I beleive that, like most cases in the human experience, conditions are that are involved in these situations are myriad, complex, and unique. Unfortunately this viewpoint can be (and is) abused. BUT, I DO see miscarriage as a child's life "having been ended," but not someone ending its life. Your views? Or anyones?
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11-02-2009, 12:28 AM | #390 | |
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If you want to argue for abortion or what-have-you through scientific terms, then I don't see how there can be any difference between the meaning of an abortion/miscarriage in terms of 'is it a child's life?' |
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11-02-2009, 10:04 AM | #391 | |
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Quote:
The meaning I meant to convey was whether I think abortion is morally wrong, as in someone actively "ending a child's life", for conveniece's sake, or what-have-you. My views on abortion and miscarriage DO match up in regards to: Has a child's life ended? Yes. I believe so. Once you move past sperm and ovum and become a zygote, I believe it is alive and should be treated as a person. BUT, the flipside of this is that there are myriad conditions under which a woman can become pregnant, as well as many that may arise during the pregnancy, perhaps prohibiting the woman to give birth without inherent danger to herself that is greater than normal, or maybe economic status, etc. I agree with Sis that the woman's part is VOLUNTARY, but I also believe that life is sacred even at its starting point, and should be treated as such. This viewpoint, as I said above, is more often than not abused, but it is mine.
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
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01-22-2010, 02:08 AM | #392 |
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My friends, please read this speech by Mother Teresa. One of the arguments for abortion is that the life of the poor is often horrible, that the children of teens who get pregnant are more likely to become criminals, that the likelihood that our children have miserable lives should be a factor when we're deciding whether or not to kill them.
Mother Teresa knew the poor better than anyone, and in her speech where she accepted the Nobel Peace Prize, she speaks about this experience and also about mothers, children and abortion. Please read it and God bless you. http://www.catholic.org/internationa...d=34602&page=1
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01-22-2010, 12:40 PM | #393 |
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Something I've been discovering since I am engaged now, is that many birth control methods are inappropriate for people who consider life to begin AT CONCEPTION. Pretty much every hormonal method and IUDs as well do this. Even if they have several mechanisms to prevent conception from happening (like suppressing ovulation and thickening the cervical mucous so sperm can't survive), they also have a safeguard method in the unlikely chance of a sperm and egg meeting: they thin the lining of the uterus so that a fertilized egg has less of a chance of implantation and survival. For those who believe, like me, that life begins at the moment of conception instead of the moment of implantation or when the baby begins developing a brain or a heart or even after the first trimester, using these birth control methods is the equivalent to abortion, since it would mean that the drug was the cause of a fertilized egg not surviving.
CITATION: The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. This page talks about the birth control pill: http://www.acog.org/publications/pat...tion/bp021.cfm This page talks about injections, implants, vaginal rings and skin patches: http://www.acog.org/publications/pat...tion/bp159.cfm And this page talks about IUDs: http://www.acog.org/publications/pat...tion/bp014.cfm You will find text saying that every one of these methods thins the lining of the uterus on these pages. If you do not believe that life begins at conception, this is obviously not an issue for you.
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01-23-2010, 01:34 PM | #394 |
Chaotic Good
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This is very true, Tessar, and not something I'd thought about before. Whatever a person's view, it ought at least to be consistent!
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01-24-2010, 10:48 PM | #395 |
Sapling
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say no to abortion except when mommy lives in danger... baby must die
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01-25-2010, 12:03 AM | #396 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
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To me this seems to be a bit of an odd idea, because either way (in my opinion) you are talking about a life. It's an incredibly difficult decision to make, but I'd like to hear some of your justification for this view point .
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10-07-2010, 11:14 PM | #397 |
Elf Lord
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Australia and abortion ...
"BABIES that are surviving late-term abortions at Melbourne's Royal Women's Hospital might be being left on shelves to die, according to an Anglican minister. Dr Mark Durie, minister of St Mary's Caulfield, said staff were finding it hard to cope with a reported six-fold increase in late-term abortions at the Women's since abortion was decriminalised in Victoria two years ago. He said because conscientious objection by medical staff was now illegal, the hospital could employ only people who endorsed late-term abortions." http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/ab...006-167u0.html
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12-13-2010, 08:50 PM | #398 |
Elf Lord
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
12-14-2010, 09:11 PM | #399 | |
Elf Lord
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Of course this business needs to be closely regulated- like any other form of free enterprise it needs to be properly supervised by the concerned government authorities to prevent exploitation and fraud.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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12-15-2010, 09:47 AM | #400 |
Elf Lord
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Ah, yes, so very heart-warming...
"Surrogacy's complexity can give rise to extraordinarily difficult decisions, such as whether or not to abort. This can happen because clinics sometimes implant multiple embryos into multiple surrogates to improve the odds: If one miscarries, there are still viable pregnancies. However, if several implants successfully lead to pregnancy, clients face ending up with not just one or two children, but many. Mike Aki and his husband, a Massachusetts couple, confronted this question. The couple planned on having two children. But their two surrogate mothers in India each became pregnant with twins. At 12 weeks into the pregnancies, Mr. Aki and his husband decided to abort two of the fetuses, one from each woman. It was a very painful call to make, Mr. Aki says. "You start thinking to yourself, 'Oh, my god, am I killing this child?'" He didn't think of his decision as an abortion, but as a "reduction," he says. "You're reducing the pregnancies to make sure you have a greater chance of healthy children," Mr. Aki says. "If you're going to bring a child into this world, you have an obligation to take care of that child to the best of your abilities." Today, Mr. Aki and his husband have two 21-month-old daughters. The girls share the same genetic mother. Each man is the genetic father of one of the girls. Next week, Mr. Aki and his husband will officially adopt each other's genetic daughter." Final paragraphs, in more than one sense.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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