Theology IV

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

So skimpy with the quotes, ElTel.
9: For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

Loved the rest of the quotes, loved them. However the first one needs a little more clarifying, so:

Matthew 12:46-50
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

So your mother and father is not your biological parents but your spiritual mother and father, those who do the work of god. Further more to clarify even further so you understand:

Matthew 10:37-39
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Mark 10:28-31
28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. 29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. 31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

Got it? The bible teaches that most people are wicked, so if you are a righteous person most likely that no one else in your house will be. So if you are happy with everyone and they are happy with you, then you must be wicked:

Exodus 23:2
Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil...

In other words...and it's funny my father and I was just arguing about this very issue (the demon). He made a statement saying that when he was my age he was the most popular person in jamaica...lol. I said really, and what does the bible say about that, he exploded and said that no one can tell him what the bible says; he knew what I would say, I used that scripture on him before.

If you are popular and everyone loves you, if your whole family loves, your neighbors, friends and co-workers, you, are, wicked. You have to go along with alot of evil to get along with so many people. Lies, false witness, jealousy, bigotry, greed and even murder; can you say, Obama? hint hint hint.

If you are righteous this would be the reality of your situation:

John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Eccle. (Apoc) 27:9 The birds will resort unto their like; so will truth return unto them that practise in her.

Eyes open?

(probably not)

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Loved the rest of the quotes, loved them. However the first one needs a little more clarifying, so:

Matthew 12:46-50
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

So your mother and father is not your biological parents but your spiritual mother and father, those who do the work of god. Further more to clarify even further so you understand:

Luke 10:25-37 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

29But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

30And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.


1 Corinthians 13

The Greatest Gift

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels,
but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries
and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails.
But whether there are prophecies, they will fail;
whether there are tongues, they will cease;
whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect has come,
then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three;
but the greatest of these is love.

Got it? The bible teaches that most people are wicked, so if you are a righteous person most likely that no one else in your house will be. So if you are happy with everyone and they are happy with you, then you must be wicked:

Wow. that is a scary and completely inaccurate picture of "the Good News" ain't it?

[The Telcontarion]

The good samaritan story is a good example of what I have said before, concerning who is your mother and father according to the word.

Now as for love, jesus also told us what is love and what is sin. Sin is:

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So as I showed you in leviticus, being gay is a sin and I will show you now, that it is also hate.

And love:

2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

So love is the keeping of the law of Moses and sin therefore is the opposite. Hate is the opposite of love, so if love is keeping the law then hate and as well as sin, is breaking the law.

I know the bible, I know what love is, it is not what we have understood it to be and that is why we will continually have strife, continually have inequity in the world because we go by our own understanding and not god's understanding which is the only truth.

Again...

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

So as I showed you in leviticus ...

What about all those other things in Leviticus - do you keep them?

If you're truly a Christian, you'd better pray to be set free from legalism and pride.

[The Telcontarion]

This started on the thread "Who do you think should be elected in 2008?" Since the elections are over it rapidly evolved into an argument heavy with religious connotations, using scripture. I thought unappropiate for the original purpose of that particular thread, so here we may continue such a debate in a more tailored environment.

So to beggin, I have posted the last 3 most relevant posts:

Me

sisterandcousinandaunt

And me again

[The Telcontarion]

Ecclesiasticus 25:7
There be nine things which I have judged in mine heart to be happy, and the tenth I will utter with my tongue: A man that hath joy of his children; and he that liveth to see the fall of his enemy.

So it's not all about love, love is just obeying the laws of god:

Ecclesiastes 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

There are many scripture were god talks about things, people and places he hates.

Ecclesiastes 7:7 Surely oppression maketh a wise man mad; and a gift destroyeth the heart.

[Rían]

Would you please give a straight answer to my two questions over on that thread, please? I don't see where you answered my questions.

[Rían]

Except to note:

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Ecclesiasticus 25:7
There be nine things which I have judged in mine heart to be happy, and the tenth I will utter with my tongue: A man that hath joy of his children; and he that liveth to see the fall of his enemy.

Didn't Jesus say something about loving your enemy?



Again, if you are really a Christian, I think you have a lot of praying and healing to do. God bless you! You need it.

[Valandil]

Telcontarion - you might try doing a little more research into the book of Ecclesiastes, since it's apparently of so much interest to you. I could suggest some good commentaries for you if you like.

Many things are recorded in the Bible. If anything, the book of Ecclesiastes can be viewed as a man's (most likely Solomon's) spiritual journey - his quest for meaning. It's only at the end of the book that he finds it - in God. A Christian (or a devout Jew - or Muslim) should take those things written in the earlier chapters with a grain of salt. Certainly not discounting them, but not automatically accepting them as proper lines of thought and devotion.

There are other things recorded in the Bible - which are un-whitewashed accounts of man's behavior, and shouldn't be construed as a directive on how God wants us to live, or to think. We should not necessarily model all our actions after those of people in the Bible - although there are certain ones whose faith we should try to imitate.

Yes - there is an aspect of God which is about judgment and wrath. But it is perilous for us, as people, to decide when and how those should be exercised. In doing so, we risk being like the unmerciful servant. We also risk assuming the role of God. There is indeed much evil in this world. Our task as Christians is to do what we can about it, and leave the rest in God's Hands. While we are to hate sin - the only appropriate response to sinners, is love.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Valandil

While we are to hate sin - the only appropriate response to sinners, is love.

The only appropriate response to sinners is what?

Proverbs 21:3
To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

For me, love, you have to back up what you say with scriptures not your own words. All I have in me is condemnation for the wicked:

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Isaiah 58:1
Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

I am sparing no one, I am pleasing no one, but the most high.


PS What has happened to the links to the old thread I posted at the beginning of this thread?

[Rían]

The book of Romans states that God's response to sinners was to love them and send Christ to die for them, even while they were his enemies. Romans chpt. 5, in case you're not familiar with it. And the bit about Jesus saying to love your enemies is in the gospels - I'll let you search for it so you'll do some reading there

I repeat - I think you're a disgruntled atheist trying to make Christians look bad!

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Well, I was just brought up that the New Testament was "Good News" of salvation.

I think it would be kind of sad to identify yourself as Christian, and yet to have missed out on the memo "the emergency is postponed, Christ died to get your sin forgiven."

I mean, I don't insist people use this story set at all, but if they do, the Gospels seem like the main event.

However, what did happen to the other thread?

[Midge]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

The only appropriate response to sinners is what?

Proverbs 21:3
To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

For me, love, you have to back up what you say with scriptures not your own words. All I have in me is condemnation for the wicked:

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Isaiah 58:1
Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

I am sparing no one, I am pleasing no one, but the most high.


PS What has happened to the links to the old thread I posted at the beginning of this thread?

Uh... as far as I can tell, Scripture tells us that EVERYONE (even Mary Poppins!) is/was a sinner... that includes you, TC! And me! As to "sparing no one", that has to include you, too... You are as much a sinner as anyone you're not sparing.

You want Scripture? From the NIV:

Proverbs 21:3 - To do what is right and just
is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Not "justice and judgment". What version do you have anyway?

Proverbs 25:21-22 - If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat;
if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head,
and the LORD will reward you.

Proverbs 24:17-18 - Do not gloat when your enemy falls;
when he stumbles, do not let your heart rejoice,
or the LORD will see and disapprove
and turn his wrath away from him.

2 Timothy tells us to be prepared, not instant... as far as I can tell... I got a picture of like, instant potatoes or something. Makes me curious again as to what version you've got. The Isaiah passage is from God to a prophet telling him to go the people of Israel and let them know they screwed up... again. I'm having problems understanding why on earth you used it.

I do not believe you are pleasing the Most High. I am half-inclined to side with Rian on this one, and if you are as she says, I suggest you practice up on your interpretation skills and use an easier version of the Bible to understand. Perhaps even the Message... I don't lightly hand that out, but it's much easier of a read than any other version, I've heard.

[Lief Erikson]

What has to be understood about the Old Testament references you keep bringing up, Telecontarion, is that in the Old Testament, justice is a dominant theme, whereas in the New Testament, mercy is. Neither of these ideas is exclusive of the other.

Justice sees the faults in a man. Mercy looks beyond that to see the elements of him that deserve love, and encourages those. Justice punishes a man because he chooses his evil deeds, but because it is just, it does not say that the man is altogether despicable- he has good in him while he remains on Earth. Mercy sees this.

God is just and merciful. When Scripture says things about God hating people, it is referring to his just revulsion at their choice of such vile sin. This is necessary because he is Love. He could not be Love if he didn't mind sin.

With that in mind, remember, he died for everyone, even though they all deserved death!!! So while he "hates" people in the sense that they choose evil and he is revolted by this, he also loves them, for he sees both the good and the bad in their characters. And his behavior toward them is incessantly loving.

As for Ecclesiasticus' comment about rejoicing to see the destruction of your enemies, and Miriam's celebration at the destruction of the Pharaoh's warriors pursuing Israel across the Red Sea, and the other Biblical references of this kind, this was an Old Testament "eye for an eye" code. In the New Testament, we are called to love our enemies and bless those who curse us. The Old Testament's Law was just, but the New Testament's mercy, exemplified in Jesus Christ, is what we are called to exhibit.

[Earniel]

The thread Scriptures has been merged in the Theology-thread.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

:
:

Justice sees the faults in a man. Mercy looks beyond that to see the elements of him that deserve love, and encourages those. Justice punishes a man because he chooses his evil deeds, but because it is just, it does not say that the man is altogether despicable- he has good in him while he remains on Earth. Mercy sees this.
:
:

Lief - I would just disagree with the underlined portion. It is not that there are parts that deserve mercy - but God chooses to grant mercy.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Well, I was just brought up that the New Testament was "Good News" of salvation.

I think it would be kind of sad to identify yourself as Christian, and yet to have missed out on the memo "the emergency is postponed, Christ died to get your sin forgiven."

I mean, I don't insist people use this story set at all, but if they do, the Gospels seem like the main event.

However, what did happen to the other thread?

I shoulda done a 'multi-quote'...

Sis - I intended to do a closing post, then split that off and temporarily place the rest of the thread in the mod forum, and keep the closing post in this sub-forum - until we had looked over the posts to see if we needed any edits (because the thread had gotten so touchy).

But - because splitting threads is such hard work () - actually, when I saw that the moderating functions had changed with a recent upgrade, and I had to figure out how to do the split function, I just stuck the whole thing in the mod forum. It will be back, but stay closed. At that point, the links will work.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I shoulda done a 'multi-quote'...

Sis - I intended to do a closing post, then split that off and temporarily place the rest of the thread in the mod forum, and keep the closing post in this sub-forum - until we had looked over the posts to see if we needed any edits (because the thread had gotten so touchy).

But - because splitting threads is such hard work () - actually, when I saw that the moderating functions had changed with a recent upgrade, and I had to figure out how to do the split function, I just stuck the whole thing in the mod forum. It will be back, but stay closed. At that point, the links will work.

Okay, thanks.

I hate when things go missing.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Midge

What version do you have anyway?

The King James version

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

With that in mind, remember, he died for everyone, even though they all deserved death!!!

Wrong, he did not die for everyone, he died for the elect only.

Originally Posted by Valandil

Lief - I would just disagree with the underlined portion. It is not that there are parts that deserve mercy - but God chooses to grant mercy.

The elect Valandil, the elect those who bear the cross and do this (I need the link V, get to it, thank you). They do deserve mercy, they are worthy:

Matthew 10:37-39
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

He said shall find it, that is a promise babe.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Well, I was just brought up that the New Testament was "Good News" of salvation.

I think it would be kind of sad to identify yourself as Christian, and yet to have missed out on the memo "the emergency is postponed, Christ died to get your sin forgiven."
did happen to the other thread?

First let me say there is no old and new testament and that I am not a christian, I am a jew. The whole book is called the gospel (the good news) not just the "new testament." The Dueteronomical books (the first 5 books in the bible/the books of Moses) dealt with the law and jesus said:

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

As I explained earlier about what is sin and what is love (need those links back woman/valandil), love is keeping the law and sin is breaking it. The reason why jesus had to die for our sins is that the greater part save the kindom of judah only did not have the law so to fulfil it he had to give them a way to do so. Which is sacrifice himself so no other sacrifice needed to be made again (lambs on the alters) and now he became the straight gate into heaven, by believing in him.

Proving my point earlier that the book is one not old and new. One message, one beginning and one ending; alpha and omega.

Galatians 3:17
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Except to note:

Didn't Jesus say something about loving your enemy?

Sure, but that does not mean being a fool; you think he meant go kiss your enemy on the cheek?

Ephesians 5 15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

Grow up, love is keeping the law. Which means don't break the law to do evil to your enemy. Don't sleep with his wife it is against the law, don't steal from him it is against the law, don't subject him to usery it is against the law etc. Grow up, you are in a faerietail world:

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

That is the reality, that is justice. Keep making your excuses, keep making a fools argument, the same shall be your reward:

Proverbs 14:7 Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge.

2 Timothy 2: 23 23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Proverbs 29:20 Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

The same shall be rewarded back unto you. You know what kind of man jesus was, eh? Let me tell you:

Luke 19:21
For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.

You know what austere means:

1 a: stern and cold in appearance or manner b: somber , grave <an austere critic>2: morally strict : ascetic

He was not friendly in general, he was harsh and very stern. Does that sound like someone that would hug his enemies. More on jesus:

Revelation 1:15
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

He had a very deep voice with an austere/stern cold personality. At 33 his hair was completely white, because he was dealing with a "stiff neck hard headed people," that would not listen. He was stressed and the scriptures clearly shows he drank a lot, but never preached while under the influence because that is also against the law, here:

Luke 7:34
The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

And he loved to eat. You don't even know what the scriptures say of the man of which you speak or you could not say what you have said.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Ah, well it clarifies things a lot for me that you identify yourself as a 'small letter' jew who believes in Jesus as the Fullfillment of prophecy.

thanks.