Tolkien's Languages - Page 20

Ruinel · 07-24-2003, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OrnelÃ*rÃ« MistÃ«
TRANS: True, you speak true[would sandave be truly?]. The word exists for 'who' and 'what'.

What words beyond this? I have found masse you have found [lengthen that stem vowel! typo, I assume, or I got the word wrong] 'or'.

Alas, and yet no word for 'chocolate', the good food of Atani [Atanion?], which I love [I love could be melin, but I like melesse. Even though melme exists with the same meaning I like melesse as a verb and noun. Sounds nice.]

Not sure if sandave is truly. masse is in the new words list as 'where'... so: I have found where you have found 'or'. (I remembered where you had listed all these choices for 'or' a long time back.)
I also like melesse over melin.

Hey! Where's my 'i'?!? Oh... oops, looks like I left it out of Atanion. Sorry.

Quote:

I quenti uu-melin: a very long list

Some I agree with... I'm glad you will be looking into it for us.

Quote:

Tell me what you think.
hmmm.......Elemmar-i-Yuura (homestar who runs...)hmmmmmm.... [/B]

Elemmar-i-Yuura naa maara.

Melessen Elemmar-i-Yuura!!

OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« · 07-26-2003, 04:12 PM

Anama- okay now that I've read what they put next to it. It comes from anamo, genitive of a noun meaning doom. O is the genitive ending, we all know that o only displaces a, so I guess I am okay with this. Also, it would be good to have better word for doom that is not associated with fate.

Anwave- I don't like this one because it is made up from three words, which I find odd. I prefer tancave, and also because it sounds nice. Tance is past tense of tac 'to fasten', and ve is (I believe) an adverbial ending as seen in maarave. The tance was probably changed to tanca because it is more easily said (?). Anyway, I still am against anwave.

Ceniril(le)- A cognate of Sindarin Cenedril. Glass is hyelle, which is not the same as ice apparently.

Cilme- Cilme is an actual word meaning choice; cil 'to choose' is isolated from it (I had it the other way around). So the realy word is cil. This seems fine (mel 'to love'; melme 'love').

Cilta- Cil, a verb I don't know the meaning of related to divide. Ta is the causitive ending. Good. For those wondering, 'to halve' is perya.

Ecar/erca- meaning or, a cognate of Sindarin egor. I found a Qenya 'var' in the Quenyanna Quenyallo wordlists, so until I figure out how the sounds change between the two tongues for cognates, I suppose we can call it a matter of preference? I still like var.

Ettuc- to draw out. I actually like this one, it has grown on me. In the wordlist it doesn't mention if tuc 'to draw' means to paint (that sort of thing) or to... to... draw. What kind of draw is it? Calpa is defined as all of these: scoop out, bale out, and draw out. So the people at newwords had no need to create this word.

Firta- fir 'to fade/die' and ta, causitive ending. No word for to kill other than this one so far as I have found.

Manan- how. But manen is how, which makes more sense because it has the instrumental case ending.

Porisalque- 'flour-grass'. I won't get over that. What is their name for wheat, then? Bread-grass? Masalque (masta + salque)?????

Well, I am glad I looked into those things. What I still refuse: manan, porisalque, anwave. Those I am suspicious of: ettuc, ecar/erca. Thoughts?

Ruinel · 07-26-2003, 05:54 PM

I recall that we discussed and came to an agreement on 'or' as herca and erca. But I didn't look in the thread for it. Perhaps you remember better than I.

Ettuc... tuc is 'draw' and tucin is 'I draw'. There is no other information on this word that I have found. However, if you 'draw out' something, it usually means to bring it forth. It could either mean to get a pencil and bring forth an image, or it could also mean to bring forth poison from a wound by methods of healing.

Ceniril... cen is 'see/behold'... so it makes some sense for mirror.

Anwave... newwords says it is made up of anwa 'real/actual/true' and ve (which is 'as/like' in Quettaparma). What 3 words did you think it was made from?

Anama... the old fate vs doom argument.

Cil makes sense for 'choose' b/c 'cilme' is choosing.

I am not happy with Cilta.

My problem with the word for 'corn', porisalque, is that 'corn' would not have been known to ME since it was something that came from the new world. But I understand that these are 'new words', like computer. So, I'm being very generous here.

I like 'wave grass' SOLMESALQUE, for wheat, because if you've ever seen a field of ripe wheat as the wind brushes past it, it moves like a wave.

Porisalque doesn't really fit for wheat, IMO. What do you think?

OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« · 07-27-2003, 08:51 AM

Where are you on the doom vs. fate argument? I think we should accept anama. I also don't like cilta. I will accept the word for wheat. Maybe the corn one, and ettuc and ceniril. I don't like cilta either.

OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« · 07-27-2003, 09:47 AM

Ok, I missread..............anwave "surely, certainly"; adverb derived from anwa "real, actual, true" by -ve suffix; cf. adj. anda "long" and adv. andave "long".

fine with the word, don't like how they define it.

EDIT: I have found this (Ardalambion, Qenya Lexicon Reviewed):

We have no late word for "or" (in desperation, people have been trying to reconstruct one from Sindarin egor, leading to such suggestions as *ecar; a more likely reconstruction may be *ercÃ«). Now the Qenya Lexicon provides var for "or" (p. 100). Writers have also missed a word for "also"; the QL has yando (p. 104). The words var and yando are often used on the Quenya mailing list, where we try (and largely succeed!) to keep conversation going in Quenya. I use them myself. Yet attentive readers will have recognized the page references: Var "or" belongs to the same group of words as vÃ¡ra "other", and yando "also" is listed right below ya "and". Rejecting, as we have to do, ya and vÃ¡ra as valid words in LotR-style Quenya, can we still feel free to accept the related words yando and var just because they conveniently fill gaps in our vocabulary and because these word-forms as such do not conflict with later words? (In all likelihood, quite different words for "also" and "or" are found in later, still unpublished material - perhaps a word for "also" related to ar as the word for "and", and a word for "or" that is indeed cognate with Sindarin egor.) There are no easy answers to these questions; we can only hope that material closer to the LotR-period will eventually be published.

Ruinel · 07-27-2003, 12:21 PM

As for cilta... it doesn't jive with the root cil. That's why I dislike it.

As for 'or'... I agree, let's keep 'var', and toss out the erca, herca, etc.

Lie tulie cenna ni. Luumen naa sinta. Tecuvan ala sina ree.

Yuhtuvan i sinya quenti.

OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« · 07-27-2003, 07:34 PM

Translation: People coming I see. [cennan? isolated pronouns are usually meant for emphasis..... tulie is the gerund or infinitive of come- it should be tuula??] Time is short [time/hour is luume, -n is dative ending]. I will write beyond this day/ I un- will write this day. [I shall not write this day would be: laa tecuvan sina ree.]

Ruinel · 07-27-2003, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OrnelÃ*rÃ« MistÃ«
Translation: People coming I see. [cennan? isolated pronouns are usually meant for emphasis..... tulie is the gerund or infinitive of come- it should be tuula??] Time is short [time/hour is luume, -n is dative ending]. I will write beyond this day/ I un- will write this day. [I shall not write this day would be: laa tecuvan sina ree.]

What I meant: 'People have come to see me. My time is short orry for the error on 'time-my'). I shall write beyond this day (day after today= tomorrow, no word found for tomorrow). I shall use the new words. (see? I even used yuhta, which is a new word)

Onoorenya lende ar sii tecen. Uumelin onoorenya na tul ostanya.

Falagar · 07-27-2003, 09:54 PM

I'm back again for a week, but won't be posting much...will be completely back about the 14 august

Ruinel · 07-27-2003, 10:09 PM

Ulca ar uuvalin quenti!

(Ulca ar Ãºvalin quenti! Ornelire can't read the accents right now, so we double the long vowels.) Cumnalme mi hoonilma nar, nai tye naa uuhyaa an carita Quenya quenti.

Milyalme quentilya.

OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« · 07-29-2003, 05:43 PM

TRANS: Evil and unhappy words. [What?! You forgot to pluralize the adjectives?

] Empty we in our hearts are, may it be that you are not here beside (us) for the writing (of) Quenya words. We long for your words.

I don't think one can attach pronouns to adjectives (cumnalme).

Ta naa sanda. Titta noote lieo tece sinome lairesse.

OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« · 07-29-2003, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
Onoorenya lende ar sii tecen. Uumelin onoorenya na tul ostanya.

My sister went and now I write. I do not like my sister to come to my homestead.

Ruinel · 07-29-2003, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OrnelÃ*rÃ« MistÃ«
...[What?! You forgot to pluralize the adjectives? ] ....

ACK! *smacks head with palm of hand*

Quote:

I don't think one can attach pronouns to adjectives (cumnalme).

YOu are right.

Quote:

Ta naa sanda. Titta noote lieo tece sinome lairesse.

that/it is true. Little number of people write this place in summer.
Ta naa sanda.

You got the second one about my sister right.

Falagar · 07-30-2003, 05:06 PM

I've translated another song by Blind Guardian, anyone want me to post it?

Ruinel · 07-30-2003, 06:49 PM

Post it.

Might as well... not much else going on here.

Falagar · 07-31-2003, 05:43 AM

Into the storm
Minna i raumo
Into the storm

1.
Give it to me
Ã anta ta nin
Give it to me

2.
I must have it
Merinyes faicawÃ«
I want it badly

3.
Precious treasure I deserve it
Miril, nÃ¡n valda ta
Precious thing/treasure, I am worthy it

Bridge:
4.
Where can I run, how can I hide the Silmarils?
Man nÃ³mÃ« polin lelya, man polin nurta I Silmarilli?
What place can I go how can I hide the Silmarilli?

5.
Gems of treelight their life belongs to me
MÃ*ri alducalon cuilentanya
Jewles of the two treeâ€™s light their lives are mine

6.
Oh itâ€™s sweet how the darkness is floating around
Ai, nÃ¡ lissÃ« man i morniÃ« lutu
Oh, [it] is sweet how the darkness float

Chorus:
7.
We are following the will of the one
HilyalmÃ« I nÃ*ra I ?mino
We follow the will of the one

8.
Through the dark age and into the storm
Ter i randa morna ar minna i raumo
Throgh the age dark and into the storm

9.
And we are following the will of the one
Ar hilyalmÃ« i nÃ*ra i mino [Moringotto]
And we follow the will of the one

10.
Through the dark age and into the storm
Ter i randa morna ar minna i raumo
Throgh the age dark and into the [noice of a] storm

11.
Lord, Iâ€™m mean
Heru, nÃ¡n faica
Lord, I am mean

12.
Blackheart show me what you hold in hand
MoriÃ³rÃ« Ã¡ tana man haryal mi malya nin
Blackheart show what you have in your hand to me

13.
I still hunger for more
Merin er [mÃ*ri]
I want still [jewels]

14.
Release me from my pain
Ã lerya ni naicelellonya
Release me from my pain

15.
Give it to me
Ã anta ta nin
Give it to me

16. x 3
How I need it
Man maurenya nÃ¡ alta
[i]How my need is great[i

Bridge
Chorus

17.
I did my part, now itâ€™s your turn
Etelien, sÃ* carel man caruval
I have finished, now you do what you shall do

18.
And remember, what you promised
Ar enyaliÃ« [Ã³resselya], vandalya
And recall [to your mind] your oath

Bridge
chorus

All "reviews" are welcome!

Ruinel · 07-31-2003, 10:47 AM

*mine niire lehta an hen*
snif... vanya, Falagar, vanya... snif

Falagar · 07-31-2003, 12:54 PM

Quote:

*mine niire lehta an hen*

trans.: *One tear loosen to/for eye*

Hantan le, Ruiynel

Ruinel · 07-31-2003, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Falagar
trans.: *One tear loosen to/for eye*

Hantan le, Ruiynel

sorry I meant... from.

Serves me right for not checking with my word list again.
Translation: "I thank you, Ruinel"

Saame ni mahtale gollum, gimli ar Radagast mi i "mud wrestling" lia, Falagar. I Quendi tyulta ar omahtale, uuperinya.

Falagar · 08-01-2003, 06:19 AM

NamÃ¡riÃ«, meldonyar! I will be leaving for tomorrow.

Edit: And I've passed 1000 posts without noticing!

07-26-2003, 04:12 PM	#382
OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 482	Anama- okay now that I've read what they put next to it. It comes from anamo, genitive of a noun meaning doom. O is the genitive ending, we all know that o only displaces a, so I guess I am okay with this. Also, it would be good to have better word for doom that is not associated with fate. Anwave- I don't like this one because it is made up from three words, which I find odd. I prefer tancave, and also because it sounds nice. Tance is past tense of tac 'to fasten', and ve is (I believe) an adverbial ending as seen in maarave. The tance was probably changed to tanca because it is more easily said (?). Anyway, I still am against anwave. Ceniril(le)- A cognate of Sindarin Cenedril. Glass is hyelle, which is not the same as ice apparently. Cilme- Cilme is an actual word meaning choice; cil 'to choose' is isolated from it (I had it the other way around). So the realy word is cil. This seems fine (mel 'to love'; melme 'love'). Cilta- Cil, a verb I don't know the meaning of related to divide. Ta is the causitive ending. Good. For those wondering, 'to halve' is perya. Ecar/erca- meaning or, a cognate of Sindarin egor. I found a Qenya 'var' in the Quenyanna Quenyallo wordlists, so until I figure out how the sounds change between the two tongues for cognates, I suppose we can call it a matter of preference? I still like var. Ettuc- to draw out. I actually like this one, it has grown on me. In the wordlist it doesn't mention if tuc 'to draw' means to paint (that sort of thing) or to... to... draw. What kind of draw is it? Calpa is defined as all of these: scoop out, bale out, and draw out. So the people at newwords had no need to create this word. Firta- fir 'to fade/die' and ta, causitive ending. No word for to kill other than this one so far as I have found. Manan- how. But manen is how, which makes more sense because it has the instrumental case ending. Porisalque- 'flour-grass'. I won't get over that. What is their name for wheat, then? Bread-grass? Masalque (masta + salque)????? Well, I am glad I looked into those things. What I still refuse: manan, porisalque, anwave. Those I am suspicious of: ettuc, ecar/erca. Thoughts? __________________ "Lot of people say this city looks like Hell," Allie said. She took a long drag from her cigarette. The glowing tip burned a hole in the darkness. "Most people never been to Hell," Jacob said. She looked at him and he could hear the smile in her voice. "And I suppose you have?"

07-27-2003, 08:51 AM	#384
OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 482	Where are you on the doom vs. fate argument? I think we should accept anama. I also don't like cilta. I will accept the word for wheat. Maybe the corn one, and ettuc and ceniril. I don't like cilta either. __________________ "Lot of people say this city looks like Hell," Allie said. She took a long drag from her cigarette. The glowing tip burned a hole in the darkness. "Most people never been to Hell," Jacob said. She looked at him and he could hear the smile in her voice. "And I suppose you have?"

07-27-2003, 09:47 AM	#385
OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 482	Ok, I missread..............anwave "surely, certainly"; adverb derived from anwa "real, actual, true" by -ve suffix; cf. adj. anda "long" and adv. andave "long". fine with the word, don't like how they define it. EDIT: I have found this (Ardalambion, Qenya Lexicon Reviewed): We have no late word for "or" (in desperation, people have been trying to reconstruct one from Sindarin egor, leading to such suggestions as ecar; a more likely reconstruction may be ercÃ«). Now the Qenya Lexicon provides var for "or" (p. 100). Writers have also missed a word for "also"; the QL has yando (p. 104). The words var and yando are often used on the Quenya mailing list, where we try (and largely succeed!) to keep conversation going in Quenya. I use them myself. Yet attentive readers will have recognized the page references: Var "or" belongs to the same group of words as vÃ¡ra "other", and yando "also" is listed right below ya "and". Rejecting, as we have to do, ya and vÃ¡ra as valid words in LotR-style Quenya, can we still feel free to accept the related words yando and var just because they conveniently fill gaps in our vocabulary and because these word-forms as such do not conflict with later words? (In all likelihood, quite different words for "also" and "or" are found in later, still unpublished material - perhaps a word for "also" related to ar as the word for "and", and a word for "or" that is indeed cognate with Sindarin egor.) There are no easy answers to these questions; we can only hope that material closer to the LotR-period will eventually be published. __________________ "Lot of people say this city looks like Hell," Allie said. She took a long drag from her cigarette. The glowing tip burned a hole in the darkness. "Most people never been to Hell," Jacob said. She looked at him and he could hear the smile in her voice. "And I suppose you have?" Last edited by OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« : 07-27-2003 at 10:34 AM.

07-27-2003, 07:34 PM	#387
OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 482	Translation: People coming I see. [cennan? isolated pronouns are usually meant for emphasis..... tulie is the gerund or infinitive of come- it should be tuula??] Time is short [time/hour is luume, -n is dative ending]. I will write beyond this day/ I un- will write this day. [I shall not write this day would be: laa tecuvan sina ree.] __________________ "Lot of people say this city looks like Hell," Allie said. She took a long drag from her cigarette. The glowing tip burned a hole in the darkness. "Most people never been to Hell," Jacob said. She looked at him and he could hear the smile in her voice. "And I suppose you have?"

07-27-2003, 09:54 PM	#389
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	I'm back again for a week, but won't be posting much...will be completely back about the 14 august __________________ FÃ«anor - Innocence incarnated Still, AikanÃ¡ro 'till the Last battle.

07-26-2003, 05:54 PM	#383
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	I recall that we discussed and came to an agreement on 'or' as herca and erca. But I didn't look in the thread for it. Perhaps you remember better than I. Ettuc... tuc is 'draw' and tucin is 'I draw'. There is no other information on this word that I have found. However, if you 'draw out' something, it usually means to bring it forth. It could either mean to get a pencil and bring forth an image, or it could also mean to bring forth poison from a wound by methods of healing. Ceniril... cen is 'see/behold'... so it makes some sense for mirror. Anwave... newwords says it is made up of anwa 'real/actual/true' and ve (which is 'as/like' in Quettaparma). What 3 words did you think it was made from? Anama... the old fate vs doom argument. Cil makes sense for 'choose' b/c 'cilme' is choosing. I am not happy with Cilta. My problem with the word for 'corn', porisalque, is that 'corn' would not have been known to ME since it was something that came from the new world. But I understand that these are 'new words', like computer. So, I'm being very generous here. I like 'wave grass' SOLMESALQUE, for wheat, because if you've ever seen a field of ripe wheat as the wind brushes past it, it moves like a wave. Porisalque doesn't really fit for wheat, IMO. What do you think?

07-27-2003, 12:21 PM	#386
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	As for cilta... it doesn't jive with the root cil. That's why I dislike it. As for 'or'... I agree, let's keep 'var', and toss out the erca, herca, etc. Lie tulie cenna ni. Luumen naa sinta. Tecuvan ala sina ree. Yuhtuvan i sinya quenti.

07-27-2003, 10:09 PM	#390
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	Ulca ar uuvalin quenti! (Ulca ar Ãºvalin quenti! Ornelire can't read the accents right now, so we double the long vowels.) Cumnalme mi hoonilma nar, nai tye naa uuhyaa an carita Quenya quenti. Milyalme quentilya.

07-29-2003, 05:43 PM	#391
OrnelÃrÃ« MistÃ« Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 482	TRANS: Evil and unhappy words. [What?! You forgot to pluralize the adjectives? ] Empty we in our hearts are, may it be that you are not here beside (us) for the writing (of) Quenya words. We long for your words. I don't think one can attach pronouns to adjectives (cumnalme). Ta naa sanda. Titta noote lieo tece sinome lairesse.

07-30-2003, 05:06 PM	#394
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	I've translated another song by Blind Guardian, anyone want me to post it? __________________ FÃ«anor - Innocence incarnated Still, AikanÃ¡ro 'till the Last battle.

07-30-2003, 06:49 PM	#395
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	Post it. Might as well... not much else going on here.

07-31-2003, 05:43 AM	#396
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	Into the storm Minna i raumo Into the storm 1. Give it to me Ã anta ta nin Give it to me 2. I must have it Merinyes faicawÃ« I want it badly 3. Precious treasure I deserve it Miril, nÃ¡n valda ta Precious thing/treasure, I am worthy it Bridge: 4. Where can I run, how can I hide the Silmarils? Man nÃ³mÃ« polin lelya, man polin nurta I Silmarilli? What place can I go how can I hide the Silmarilli? 5. Gems of treelight their life belongs to me *MÃri alducalon cuilentanya** Jewles of the two treeâ€™s light their lives are mine 6. Oh itâ€™s sweet how the darkness is floating around Ai, nÃ¡ lissÃ« man i morniÃ« lutu Oh, [it] is sweet how the darkness float Chorus: 7. We are following the will of the one *HilyalmÃ« I nÃra I ?mino** We follow the will of the one 8. Through the dark age and into the storm Ter i randa morna ar minna i raumo Throgh the age dark and into the storm 9. And we are following the will of the one *Ar hilyalmÃ« i nÃra i mino [Moringotto]** And we follow the will of the one 10. Through the dark age and into the storm Ter i randa morna ar minna i raumo Throgh the age dark and into the [noice of a] storm 11. Lord, Iâ€™m mean Heru, nÃ¡n faica Lord, I am mean 12. Blackheart show me what you hold in hand MoriÃ³rÃ« Ã¡ tana man haryal mi malya nin Blackheart show what you have in your hand to me 13. I still hunger for more *Merin er [mÃri]** I want still [jewels] 14. Release me from my pain Ã lerya ni naicelellonya Release me from my pain 15. Give it to me Ã anta ta nin Give it to me 16. x 3 How I need it Man maurenya nÃ¡ alta [i]How my need is great[i Bridge Chorus 17. I did my part, now itâ€™s your turn *Etelien, sÃ carel man caruval** I have finished, now you do what you shall do 18. And remember, what you promised Ar enyaliÃ« [Ã³resselya], vandalya And recall [to your mind] your oath Bridge chorus All "reviews" are welcome! __________________ FÃ«anor - Innocence incarnated Still, AikanÃ¡ro 'till the Last battle.

07-31-2003, 10:47 AM	#397
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	mine niire lehta an hen snif... vanya, Falagar, vanya... snif

08-01-2003, 06:19 AM	#400
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	NamÃ¡riÃ«, meldonyar! I will be leaving for tomorrow. Edit: And I've passed 1000 posts without noticing! __________________ FÃ«anor - Innocence incarnated Still, AikanÃ¡ro 'till the Last battle.

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