05-17-2007, 09:45 AM | #381 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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The Vatican also use to have the power to start wars, as did the King or Queen of England. Do either, while they still exist, still have anywhere near that kind power any more? Can you imagine a scenario where they would ever regain that power? Dinosaurs dominated the earth for 160 million years. Humans have a few thousand years of domination under our belts. Does this mean that we are destined to eventually lose our dominance to a resurgence of what was obviously a much more successful species than we are? If all of the western world crashes and burns, and tyranny becomes the norm again, I'll admit I was wrong. But I don't see us taking that many steps backward, though we will certainly take some from time to time, now that the democracy cat is out of the bag.
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05-17-2007, 09:47 AM | #382 | |
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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05-17-2007, 01:27 PM | #383 |
Quasi Evil
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Lief,
What garbage. Theres ALWAYS been STD's as long as there have been humans. Theres always been drug (alcohol) abuse and family break up. ALWAYS. You can play numbers games all you like but the idea that lessening these things is justification for living under a Taliban like religious dictatorship is just lunacy. That kind of oppressive leadership results in much much more damaging conditions for people then simply getting crabs or getting drunk or getting a divorce does. Ask Germany or South Africa or Afghanistan... Humans have an innate instinct to engage in what you like to define as "immoral" behavior simply because they are human. Irrelevant of whatever oppressive society they live under. So deal with and accept that fact rather then making such draconian cutting off your nose despite your face proposals. There are MUCH better ways of handling things...
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 05-17-2007 at 01:30 PM. |
05-17-2007, 03:42 PM | #384 | |
Elf Lord
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I know what my preference is, but I don't base it on any kind of social Darwinism that assumes my way is inherently "more successful." I just think it's "right." I don't know what day of the week "tyranny was the rule' in a way that applies to all the planet...we've hardly taken any interest in most people's version of themselves, preferring to enshrine the victor's version. For the average person on the street in Africa, the Golden Age might have been 200 BCE, or 50 AD, or any time before or since, EXCEPT today. And the same goes for almost everywhere else, outside of mostly white enclaves in NA, Western Europe, and the British Isles. I like democracy. I think it's a swell idea. But even in the US, which fetishizes the term so much, it's distributed highly unevenly.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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05-17-2007, 04:03 PM | #385 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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I didn't say democracy is perfect, just better. And, once entrenched, is very hard (if not impossible), to remove.
The bad things you mention are simply what IR pointed out: the way it has always been. The difference between today and a few thousand years ago is that there are some refuges for the poor and oppressed, and I think they will continue to grow. The numbers game is a difficult thing, because there are so many more humans on the globe than there even were 500 years ago, but my guess is that the percentage of those who are oppressed has diminished over those 500 years tremendously. And, while 200 BCE may have been a great time for a few elites among the classic civilizations, my guess is that the average person was just as desperate, if not more so, then they are today.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
05-17-2007, 04:40 PM | #386 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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I should add that, even if I'm wrong, optimistic is a much more pleasant way to go through life.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
05-17-2007, 04:55 PM | #387 | |
Elf Lord
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If democracy was so hard to remove, there would be no "Patriot Act".
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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05-17-2007, 05:09 PM | #388 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(sorry for the outburst - I just get tired of all the "with all of our modern advances, life is so much better now than before!" lines that I've seen before. I applaud your viewpoint, sis! )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-17-2007, 05:10 PM | #389 | |||||
Elf Lord
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Me too .
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But does the fact that something harmful has always existed mean that it should be legal? Torture has always existed too. Cannibalism has always existed, though generally in remote corners of society. Does the fact that they have always existed mean that they should be allowed, under law? Laws should protect society. That's one of their primary functions. Do you advocate legalizing all drugs and allowing drug dealers free reign in society? Quote:
And numbers are very important. If they weren't, we wouldn't bother with police. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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05-17-2007, 05:56 PM | #390 | ||||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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05-18-2007, 06:57 PM | #391 |
Elf Lord
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IR, maybe you know, because I'm not following Lief's argument. He's saying that you "advocate the legalization" of STD's, drunkenness and divorce? And he suggests a firm Christian theocracy is the only real alternative to a complete bacchanal?
I really don't understand US citizens with this point of view. Isn't it clear that if those systems were all that, we wouldn't have an independent country at all? My ancestors came here for religious plurality and freedom of expression. That's just who they were. Europe was full of people killing minority faiths, and the lucky ones got out. Why would anyone born here want to reinstate a version of the older idea?
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
05-18-2007, 08:45 PM | #392 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Bah!
I can see why Pilate washed his hands. It would be nice if we had time machines so we could go back and take a look at some of these "golden ages" you all idolize.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
05-20-2007, 02:37 AM | #393 |
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I'm going to respond to the above posts on the Theology Thread. Otherwise, we'll get too far off track from the topic of this thread.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
05-21-2008, 10:52 AM | #394 | |
Elf Lord
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Congratulations, California.
One of the people planning to take advantage is George Takei, 71, who is planning to marry his partner of 21 years. Takei is of course better known to Star Trek fans as LT. Sulu, helmsman of the starship Enterprise. Apparently he was sent to an interment camp for Japanese-Americans as a boy, so he's no stranger to discrimination. Quote:
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05-21-2008, 01:21 PM | #395 |
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Your link doesn't work. >_<
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a state in which gay-marriages were allowed and then that decision got reversed?
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05-21-2008, 02:06 PM | #396 |
Quasi Evil
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Massachusetts also allows gay marriages currently. And 4 other states allow Civil Unions. But most states have actively sought to ban gay marriage by statuate or constitutional amendment.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
05-21-2008, 02:22 PM | #397 |
Elf Lady
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Ah, thanks.
Here it's legal. Yesterday there was a kiss-in on the Dam-square in Amsterdam to protest against discrimination of homosexual people. I wondered in what sense they felt discriminated against and if it happens a lot.
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
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05-21-2008, 02:39 PM | #398 | |
Elf Lord
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Your family isn't recognised for custody or inheritance, and only occasionally for big deal stuff like health insurance. If you're in the hospital, your partner isn't recognised as 'next of kin" and can't even visit, much less make health-care decisions for you, without specialized private paperwork. You pay higher taxes. You have trouble establishing joint credit. You have trouble adopting. You aren't protected by divorce laws, and aren't entitled to retirement or survivors' benefits. You're routinely discrimanated against in the workplace, and with housing. Your consentual intimate activity is illegal. You are effectively banned from certain categories of employment, including the military. You're at risk for "hate crimes" which target you as a member of your "class". As a young person you're denied access to accurate information about your sexuality, and to good role models. As a parent, you're at risk of having your parenting threatened for no other reason. There's a lot of work to do.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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05-21-2008, 03:02 PM | #399 |
Elf Lady
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I was wondering about the Dutch homosexuals actually, because I thought the laws here were pretty much trying to help them. I know there are still people who aren't very nice towards gay people (I still don't understand the difference between "homosexual" and "gay" >_<) but here they can get married, you can tell people you are gay and most people will accept it (I think), they can have children through adoption, IVF, whatever and your preference isn't supposed to be allowed to make a difference when having a jobinterview.
But since there's apparently still something wrong (otherwise they wouldn't have to protest), I am interested to find out what exactly is.
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Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
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05-21-2008, 03:11 PM | #400 |
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Civil unions giving all those abilities and connections and rights exist in many places. But some uber-gays insist on the word marriage since it validates them in ways that civil union does not. But that is really absurd since marriage is a union of opposite sexes.
So which is this? A valid legal complaint or whining about not being able to be married? - as though the law could change Nature?
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